Short Films, Big Impact: A Conversation with Rae Shaw

Rae Shaw is a Black female writer-director whose work has been evolving to stretch the boundaries of how Black women see and are seen in the world. Her work concentrates on lifting the experiences of Black women and women of color by telling stories that dimensionalize us in spaces that have sought to diminish, exploit and punish us through stereotypes. Her screenplays have won honors at top international screenwriting competitions, and her film work has screened at top film festivals. She is the author of the recent  screenwriting book, THE SHORT, from MWP,  the foremost publisher of independent filmmaking books.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

How do you make an award-winning short film? Well, that's the question we're covering today.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, everyone, and so glad you could join us for this special class and podcast presentation. I'm Claire Papan, co-producer of this series, and I'm delighted to be here with my colleague, Carol Dean, writer, producer, founder of From the Heart Productions, and one of the film industry's most dedicated advocates for independent filmmakers. Today we're joined by an extraordinary guest whose work has been transforming the way we think about storytelling, representation, and the art of short filmmaking. Ray Shaw is a black female writer-director whose work expands the boundaries of how black women see themselves and are seen in the world. Through her films and screenplays, she creates multi-dimensional stories that challenge stereotypes and celebrate authenticity, vulnerability, and imagination. Her award-winning screenplays have earned recognition in prestigious international screenwriting competitions, and her films have screened at major festivals. Ray is also a respected filmmaker, shorts curator, script archivist, and educator. She's received numerous fellowships, including Mellon and ITBS Diversity Development Fund Fellowships, and currently teaches in the School of Cinema at San Francisco State University. Today we'll be discussing her acclaimed book, The Short, published by Michael Weesee Productions. Whether you're an emerging filmmaker, an experienced storyteller, or simply curious about the power of short films, Ray's Insights offer practical guidance on writing, developing, producing, funding, and maximizing the impact of short form storytelling. And Carol, Michael Weezy is your publisher too, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yes, I get to work with Michael Weezy. He has the best books for filmmakers. And welcome, Ray. We're thrilled to have you with us.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Thank you so much, Carol and Claire. I'm so thrilled to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Great. Okay, so let's get started. I want to know what inspired you to write the short and what gap did you see in filmmaking education that needed to be filled?

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Well, you know, first I want to say that when I met Michael and connected with him, he was really interested in my short work. He really liked that I'd done experimental films, a trailer, some narrative work. And so I think it really started there. And once I was on board and started writing the book, then I was really interested in how can I write a book for my students? We never have enough time in the classroom. And so I really was thinking about them and how I could create a book that was a lot more accessible and that leveled the playing field for filmmakers, whatever their backgrounds. I really was interested in seeing a uh a short by David Lynch next to a short from someone that everyone doesn't know. Um, like uh there's a really great French film that's about a cockroach. And, you know, those two films are um, you know, are in relationship and conversation with each other. But in the industry, you know, we would put someone like David Lynch on a pedestal and not think about um, you know, this this other filmmaker uh who was um uh uh able to get some grants from the Doha uh Institute. And and I think also for the book, I was really interested in creating a space of yeses and an industry of no's. You know, films are still, yeah, you know, films are still this place where dreams come alive every day. But I remember, you know, with my time in the industry, you know, you there's just so many people that are saying, no, you can't, you can't do this, you can't do that. And in my book, I wanted to say, you know, yes, you can and you will.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Oh, that is so important. Thank you very much, because you've got to support other filmmakers. I don't tell filmmakers uh the hard part because it's a long, hard road to get a filmmade sometimes. But if you don't know that, then you're more likely to sail through it, have a wonderful time, and be quite successful. That's what they need to hear. The yes. So thank you for that. Now, uh, you describe the short films as their own art form. I love that. Rather than most people think of it as a stepping stone to features, so why do you think that distinction is so important?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

You know, I love short films because they're not they're not precious. Uh, you know, when you approach a short film, there's just an openness. And I think the most important thing is that there's just less risk. There's there's more possibility for fun, there's more possibility for play. The approach is totally different. There's less to lose, there's less on the line, you know. Um, and I um I remember just as an example, thinking about Sean Baker when he talked about his transition from making tangerine to the Florida project. Tangerine is a feature, but he was making shorts before that. And I I like to look at tangerine as kind of like a long short because of the the style and you know, using the phones and giving the phones to the actors. And, you know, in some ways, I like to think of it as um uh kind of like an anthology um of small shorts all brought together to make a feature.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Oh, he's a great filmmaker. That Florida project is so precious. It's the kids. The kids made it so delightful, I think. I really love it. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions filmmakers have about making short films?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yes, that is a favorite question. Uh the thing that I really try and express in the book that I think is the big secret is that people have made careers of short content. It's kind of a big secret, right? That uh folks like Spike Lee and Wonkar Wai are also making commercials. Yes. Yeah. And uh there's also music videos can also be really lucrative, you know, not to mention uh the social media influencers who are out there. So, you know, it's it's kind of this quiet secret that a lot of uh strong, independent filmmakers, you know, they they do their industry work in short content and then get to make the films they want to make um from those funds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Right. Well, uh in your book, The Short, you discuss the unique structure of short film. So tell us, how does writing a compelling short differ from writing a feature screenplay?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, you know, I I think there's something really magical about shorts that uh that I just find so attractive. I love uh Lynn Ramsey's work in particular. It's so poetic and dreamy, but you know, when I think about her features and her shorts, I feel like, you know, the feature script is like a it's like a deep dive into an idea, you know, and um some of the devices I use with my students is uh, you know, trying to think of um the subplots of a feature film as kind of like branches of a tree. Um, but a short script is uh more like a promise. It's a promise of what's to come. It's a wish, it's a dream, it's uh it's an experiment, it's an exploration. And I think short films, you know, they they can come from a really personal place. And I think that's that's really, really powerful. You know, there's there's no industry influence, there's not like uh um investors involved, all these people that you have to be accountable to. You know, the process of development, you know, can be as unique as the person, you know, whether you go to film school or not, you know, people will use whatever resources they have available to them to start to make it. And I and I think that's a a beautiful process.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yes, it is. And when it is a personal story, uh I as a grantor, I set up a short film grant. I love it, and I love to see when it's a personal story because you know, first of all, it's going to be excellent, and they have their heart in it. You know they're going to finish it because it's their material they're putting together. Um so I want you to tell us how people can use your book to their greatest advantage. Start in the beginning and go all the way through it, or can you pick up and look at any chapter as needed?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, I'm glad you I'm glad you asked that question. I do think it's I've written it in a way that you don't have to go through it chapter by chapter in order. And I do invite people to kind of peruse and look through it, you know, kind of like um uh a script oftentimes, you know, when when I used to do coverage back in the day, you know, you're you're always sort of going to the end of the script and then going to the to the middle, you know, back to the beginning before you start reading it. So so definitely, you know, going to the chapter, um, the table of contents and looking at the different chapters, I think is great. But I want filmmakers to really use it as um a tool to think about how to build a career of storytelling. You know, the book is filled with examples, you know, it really talks about the landscape of short content. It talks about transitions, you know, how you move from one form to another. And more importantly, you know, it really talks about language, you know, the craft, the craft of how you're putting the words together to create sounds and imagery. I think more than anything, the book is about form, you know, and and how to adapt form for different situations and intentions.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Well, I would say um that you're so right. And what I want to congratulate you on is getting that melon fellowship. You have to be a smart cookie to win that. Melon on grants and been up with the board when they're discussing uh what they want, what they want you to achieve. And they're tough. They're tough, but they're really generous with their money when you are talented. So congratulations on that.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

So let's go to chapter four, because I like that where you get into the theme and the purpose and intention. That's one of my favorite words. What is your intention with this film? So share some of chapter four with us, please.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, you know, when I was uh teaching in my earlier years, I remember um we did a survey of the students, um, and it was asking them about you know different elements of storytelling and theme was this thing that we just found over and over again, was something that was really hard for students to grasp. It's not it's not a very tangible concept. I think we all are familiar with the universality of themes, you know, love or grief or um or sorrow, but how you make it tangible in a story uh really becomes the question. And so I I really try and express this idea of how theme is something that needs to braid all of the other story elements together. You know, when you're when you're asking about, you know, why people are doing things in the story, it really needs to come back to theme. And I think when when I look at purpose and intention, it's really asking questions around the how and what it is you're you're really trying to do for your audience or cause them to do or inspire them to do. And that really starts to reshape um, you know, how you get to tell that story in what form and you know what what impact and effect do you want it to have.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

What impact, yes, that's very important. Stay focused on that. And in chapter five, you want to find meaning in structure. So tell us why this is important.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, it's uh definitely one of my favorite chapters in the book. Uh, there's a there's an old, very short quote by Sid Field, which basically says, screenplays are all about structure. Yeah. And I really wanted to explore how I've always felt that writing a screenplay uh is about having mastery of all the other literary forms. Um, you know, as a chapter in my book, it's it's uh it's interesting because I had uh some early readers who read it and were expecting a lot of very traditional approaches. Um and I was like, oh, that's totally not what I want. And so I rewrote the whole chapter, you know, because because I really wanted it to be about how structure is also very personal and how we have to allow existing uh structures that are in the story to allow uh to allow that story to unfold in that way, and that we shouldn't always be trying to push the form onto it. You know, it's you know, sometimes three-ac structure isn't the way, sometimes four-ac structure isn't the way. Sometimes with a short, you know, you really have to see what the short itself is saying about the structure that it wants to become and to follow that. And that can be uncomfortable, yeah. Uh, but can be um very rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

My gosh, that's most unique. Good for you. Okay, let's go to what elements must be present in a successful short film screenplay, regardless of the genre.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I think that's the unexpected, the unpredictable, the novel. Um, you know, I think short films are about um doing something that people haven't seen before. I hope my book is reminding those who are reading it that the boundaries can be moved. So let's move them. You know, the the part of the title of the book is writing tools to free your imagination. And that's, you know, I think that's what people look for in a short, you know, how how are you doing something that we haven't seen before? You know, how how how is it really coming off the page? Um, how is it refreshing and new?

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Okay, now let's go to chapter 11, where you cover notes on production, because most short filmmakers have to produce their own films, and you start there with great advice for the producer. You ask them what are the top goals and intentions for this film?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, my big question in that chapter is about resources. What are your resources? And that filmmakers really have to think hard about that. I think there's so many ways that we dismiss the resources that are around us. Um, and that you have to kind of look hard at these things that you may be taking for granted. I think being a great producer is uh akin to thinking of yourself as kind of an anthropologist of sorts, and that you're looking at the time life of your film, you're looking at its present, its past, its future, and you're looking at its relationship to industry, society, and culture. Um, and so, you know, when when you're producing that film, it's always going to be back to uh go back to this question of what are the resources across this timeline? You know, how will it have a life in the future for the future to come?

SPEAKER_02 19:36

You know, Casavetes was the first one that really did that. He's the father of independent films in my book, because when he did the Chinese bookie film, um that was a club that uh one of his students had, who was an actor, so he had an acting group going at the same time. And he used the acting group actors as a valuable tool. They were in his movies, and then he said, What have we got here? Oh, we have a nightclub, okay. And he wrote a script around the nightclub and the actor, and uh that's uh the killing of the Chinese booking. It's really a great film. But this is he was telling all the other independents use what you have, write a script, see uh who's got the house on the beach you know, and use that, write a film about the beach and murder on the beach or something. That's what you're telling your shard filmmakers. This is basic, good filmmaking thinking. Now, tell us about your filmmakers at play summer workshops.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, so uh since the book has come out, we've done a couple of workshops with different nonprofits and libraries and organizations, um, some collectives, and I've always wanted to be able to offer these workshops, you know, outside of these organizations to do something online that's really accessible across the country, uh beyond for sure. So uh we're offering a series of workshops, everything from screenwriting to directing to budgeting and producing. Um and I think we have two workshops, I think, every month in the summer. So yeah, so two in June, two in July, and two in August. Um, and and they're all on uh Eventbrite. And we also do postings on Instagram and Facebook uh for for folks to join. Yeah, thank you so much for asking about that, Carol.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Well, tell us how people can. Reach you. What is your email, your Facebook, and how tell us all that?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, um, Ray at Play at Gmail uh is our uh an easy way to reach me over email. You'll also find Ray at Play on Instagram. Um, and uh I think also LinkedIn. Um there's let me see, and also on Instagram. My personal handle is also Ray Shaw Filmmaker, so you can find me and um any of those workshops on any of those uh social media platforms, and then in terms of websites, there's uh theshort.co and there's also ray at play.com, and you'll also find information about those workshops there.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Terrific. Okay. Now let's get back into the film world. So, what are some of the some of the most common mistakes that you see filmmakers make during the development and production of their short films?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

The number one thing I see is usually shooting before they're ready. Uh and uh that can look a lot of different ways. You know, some sometimes it's production things, but mostly it's about story. Um and, you know, I think sometimes people are rushing to get the film done, and I understand that pressure. It's it's always so difficult trying to gather everything together, but you know, it's about the story at the end of the day, you know, so much about the story and the writing, and you know, and really having an understanding that it's a literary document, but that it's also a blueprint, too, you know, and things like punctuation matter, you know, because performers have to read it and they have to understand. Um, the crew has to understand from what they're reading, what they're trying to create. And I uh I just really love how um I'm I'm a um uh someone who's really into genre stuff, especially horror. And I was uh just at a Bay Area book fair, and they were they had uh Stephen Graham Jones and Tanner Reeve Dew talking about their work. And when someone asked about recommendations, I was so thrilled to just listen to them talking about style books and poetry, um, you know, as people who are writing screenplays and fiction.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Wonderful, wonderful. So, what's a possibility of distribution with shorts?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

You know, you'll find shorts everywhere. I've I've always wanted to be invited at some point to to do a podcast on how shorts are taking over the world. Because they're they're everywhere. You know, you'll you'll find shorts on you know regular platforms like Netflix and Prime and Apple. You'll find them all over social media, Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok, you know, but YouTube is just becoming this amazing center, um, you know, that has the best principles of monetization. Um, you know, if you want to self-distribute, you know, and and I don't I think people didn't even realize um that Google just kind of quietly over the last year, you know, added a subheading with their searches that's that's shorts. It's just it's just its own tab now is shorts, you know. So um there's YouTube, there's Vimeo, those are some really uh common platforms that a lot of independent filmmakers use. And you know, I think they both have so many tools that are really designed to create sustainability. Um, I think the other thing that people don't really know so much about uh YouTube and Vimeo is that they're trying to become like these little mini studios where they host other uh platforms and channels. Um so like YouTube has Nowness and um different channels like that, and then Vimeo has specialized video essay platforms like Film Scapel and In Transition. So it's uh it's it's a really interesting space that's bigger than I think that we realize. We just kind of take them for granted.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Oh um, listen, Disney doesn't. I mean, YouTube is outpacing Disney, they're getting more traffic. Could you ever imagine that? I mean, smart cookies. Yes. So, okay, let's talk about funding because that sometimes could be a challenge. I see as a sponsor for filmmakers making charts, the money is coming from their brother, sister, uncle, aunt, best pals, you know, and what is so wonderful is it comes in a hundred dollar checks or five thousand dollar checks. But it's all heartfelt. You see that, uh, because when they write the checks out and then they put this is for my friend short film, so and so, and uh there's a love there, there's a support as effort. There is, yeah. How did you fund your films, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

You know, uh I have a section in the book that's called Making It Work, which draws from what you were just talking about in terms of sponsorships and kind donations, all of those things, you know, grandmom's cooking, all of those things. Um, so yes, so I agree with all of that. Um, I have also, yes, been able to draw from some of those resources in the past. So, you know, sponsorships and kind donations, crowdfunding. Um, I think, I think as a professor, I have also benefited from just becoming a really strong grant writer. I've been writing grants. Um, gosh, I think ever since I really just graduated film school and academia has really just helped me to write better and more connective and cohesive grants. Um, you know, I I think filmmakers have to take all of that into account and really just think about, again, you know, what resources do I have that I'm sort of taking for granted that can help me to make my film? I think the one great thing that has happened that is a huge change is the accessibility to a camera. You know, now with camera phones, you know, that is not so much a problem anymore. And, you know, it really puts um the possibility and the accessibility of making a film in so many people's hands now.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Absolutely, because so many people are watching films on their cam on their phones, that it doesn't matter that you don't have the top camera.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

Um, okay, so now you talked about the grandmother cooking for you. See, this is what I find that filmmakers forget they need more than money. They need people who have no money but lots of time to help them with research, with marketing, posting online, finding somebody to do all the posting on a social network for you, and then giving them a uh social networking credit in the film is very effective. And finding somebody who's a good cook who will cook the lunches or the breakfast, these are all fun things, right? And save money. Yes. Well, let's talk about um nonprofit organizations uh helping filmmakers move from a short film idea to a completed project and giving the donor uh the write-off. What is your take on that?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, I think that uh, you know, nonprofit organizations can help short filmmakers in many ways. I'm, you know, whether it's someone who's a sponsor or uh offering funds through uh their company or their or their individual sponsorships, it's I think those are absolutely on board and um can really help in the making of a project. I think I think one of the best things that organizations can do to help filmmakers, however, the the one thing I would I think can make a real difference is allowing filmmakers to make the choice of whether the film is going to be a short or a feature. I think so many times I see a lot of organizations when they're offering funds or sponsorships, they really try and ask filmmakers to qualify, whether it's a feature or a short. Um, and I and I think those lines are getting more more blurred um through digital media. So I think I think being able to leave that door open more times, I I think can be really helpful to filmmakers.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I totally agree with you. And a short is anything under 40 minutes, right? That's how you classify it. Yes. Yes. And 40 minutes to me is a perfect link for a film where you have a community-based uh feedback group where you go in with the questions, you had everybody outlines and their discussions, and it could be on overcoming grief, or so many people are working on things about grief, or uh how do you achieve success after some disaster in your life? Uh, and all these things seem to be important to filmmakers. So a 40-minute film or a 30-minute film is not only more saleable, but it is a perfect link for a community discussion. Have you?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Oh, uh, can you say that one more time, Carol? Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yes. Have are you finding that uh films that are um 30 or 40 minutes are great to use for community discussion groups? In other words, let's say the film is about loss or overcoming grief, and uh you're working with people who have experienced that or are dealing with it, and you can use your short film along with uh uh a feedback group that talks after the film about how to use the film content to better their lives.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, I think that um shorts that are made for the community and uh align with some of the principles or the missions um of those nonprofit organizations, uh I I think that's happening a lot more now. I think it's happened in the past too, but I I definitely feel like we're seeing we're seeing that occur more. And and I think the for the longer short films, I absolutely agree with you that it's it's a much better space um for there to be a discussion, uh, for there to be education, um, for there to be illumination, um, and and really just exploring a lot of the ideas. You know, longer shorts are harder to get into film festivals because it means that you're giving up the number of shorts for this one big short. But these kinds of um in-person or online discussions are perfect for that kind of situation and scenario where the the nonprofit can really talk about the issue in a way um uh where the community can participate and really engage with the ideas and the concepts in the short film to really create movements and um uh and generate support in really powerful ways.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Oh, wonderful. All right, now let's uh you have extensive experience as a curator and an archivist. So what trends are you seeing in short filmmaking that excite you?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, I know we were we were talking about verticals. Yes, it's that verticals go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Sorry. I I talked to a woman who is an expert, she's making a lot of verticals, and she said fifty million views is a bad film. You have done a poor job. That's hilarious. Yeah, um, but so for filmmakers from underrepresented communities, how can short films become powerful to uh tools for telling stories?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, I think that filmmakers of color, um, filmmakers from diverse backgrounds, I think they're coming to a phase where they're no longer, we are no longer asking for permission. Um and are really just taking the tools and making films with whatever resources that we have. I mean, you know, I I think this the time that we're in now, we're just we're seeing so so many people who have done that in the past and are doing it more in the future. Um, you know, I you know, definitely thinking about the Issa Rays and the Quinta Brunsons and you know what they were able to do with short content on social media and YouTube, you know, but also um filmmakers like Jen Nikuru and Nuatama Bodomo, Cecile Mike, you know, who are also doing things for museums and um, you know, have their work on YouTube on some of these specialized channels. Uh, you know, the the short is really just um a space where I see so many filmmakers just really telling their stories, their political stories, their passion stories, you know, the the the things that are important to them, the things that are happening in the world right now. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Wonderful. That's wonderful. So the last question if a filmmaker listening today could take away just one lesson from the short, what would you want that to be?

SPEAKER_00 38:44

I think I think the thing that I was always told when I was starting out in the filmmaker, um that rule has not changed. And that rule is make the film that no one else can make. That that I think is still where we are. And so I I you know I encourage everyone who's thinking about making a film or hasn't made one in a while. You know, I tell my students, just just keep making, just keep making the films. You will you will learn so much, you will always get better. And to remember that it's that it's really all about the process, you know, enjoy it, have fun, explore, experiment, you know, and and you'll find your way, you'll find your visual language, you'll find your style. And I think that's that's what we're seeing today is that so many um filmmakers, you know, with uh the back rooms and obsession, you know, we're we're really finding out that filmmakers who keep making, you know, they they're able to find their way into a career.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Into their career, absolutely. Ray, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your experience, and your passion for short filmmaking. Your book, The Short, reminds us that short films are not merely smaller versions of feature films, they are powerful storytelling vehicles, and they're capable of creating profound emotional impact, launching careers, and giving voice to stories that deserve to be told. So we encourage our listeners to pick up a copy of The Short and continue exploring the creative possibilities of short form storytelling. This book is available on Amazon. So join us again next week for another inspiring conversation with filmmakers and industry professionals who are helping shape the future of storytelling. So thank you for being with us, Ray and Claire. And thank you for the knowledge that you shared with us. We really appreciate your your um total dedication to filmmakers, Ray.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Thank you so much, Carol.