Crafting Compelling Content: A Conversation with Michael Holstein

Michael Holstein is a co-founder and executive producer at Mesmeric Media. He began his career writing for HBO’s The Wire and marketing major films like The Rock and Independence Day. After earning a law degree, Michael became VP of Business Affairs at WETA-TV in Washington, DC, where he produced numerous shows, including In Performance at the White House and PBS NewsHour. He later launched The Content Farm, where he created award-winning content across unscripted genres and platforms. His honors include being the only 3x winner of Real Screen’s "Summit Showdown" competition, being a 2017 Producer’s Guild Award nominee, and receiving the 2019 Washington, DC Mayor’s Arts Award for Excellence in Media Arts. Holstein has produced several series and won multiple awards, including Emmy and Telly accolades. Michael is a member of the Producer’s Guild of America and the National Academy of Television Arts & Sciences.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Michael Holstein is a co-founder and executive producer at Mesmeric Media. He began his career writing for HBO's The Wire and marketing major films like The Rock and Independence Day. After earning a law degree, Michael became VP of Business Affairs at WETA TV in Washington, D.C., where he produced numerous shows, including thin performances at the White House and PBS News Garrison. He later launched the content genetics, where he created award-winning content across unscripted genres and platforms. His authors included being the only three-time winners of real screen skilled competitions. And receiving the 2019 Washington DC Fighters Arts Award for Excellence and Media Arts. Michael is a member of the Producers Guild of America and the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. And Carol, Michael has years of experience to share with us.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Yes, he does. Thank you, Claire. And Michael, we sincerely appreciate your joining us.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Well, today we want to learn how to take a show concept, make it appealing to audiences, learn what story elements are and which ones are important, and get advice for aspiring producers. So let's get started with what was it like being part of the writers team on one of the most popular series ever made, The Wire?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Um, it was an amazing experience that I can very honestly, with no false humility, say that I probably contributed very close to nothing to. So I think my main contribution was probably just sitting there and absorbing everything that the smarter and more talented people were doing. But um I worked mostly on dialogue and punching up dialogue um for characters and not so much in the story, but um that was sort of at the the higher level of the writers, uh the writer's room, but um really just an amazing experience on so many levels. Uh, you know, the show was not an instant hit, so I don't think anybody in the moment really understood um, you know, what it was going to become, although it did feel like it was an exceptionally talented group of people working on it. Um and I think probably one of the one of the biggest takeaways for me was that uh as much as I like writing and I think I'm decent at it, uh the people who really can you know write at that level, it's just a whole it's a whole different ballgame. Um that's kind of just beyond uh the talent I possessed. So it uh encouraged me to not give up on writing, but also not put all my eggs in one basket. Um led me uh sort of in a roundabout way to to producing and developing shows as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Well, um I've always wondered about the the writer's room and particularly the wire, because the character development was so well done. I wonder if uh the writers, if one writer takes a character and becomes the character, uh, or do they all contribute to the character? How does that work?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

That's yeah, that's a great question. Um I think for scripted drama, um everybody sort of contributes equally to the development of the character. So, you know, as you're as you're sitting there and kind of shaping who these people are going to be on screen, you know, everyone will sort of almost like a whiteboard session, you throw up at different ideas about the character's background and what's shaped them and what their motivations are and things like that. Um and then once you're off and running, um, I think it's kind of a combination of things. I mean, I think there are some writers maybe take a special interest in certain characters, everybody contributes, but then also, you know, the actors really help shape the characters too. So you can write a character a certain way and write dialogue a certain way and and and script it out as much as you can, but the the performance by the actors um often requires you to sort of shift on the fly and say, all right, well, this character, you know, they're not exactly who we thought they were because the person, you know, in the role put in such a powerful performance doing something unexpected. Um, so you sort of have to be, I don't think you can be too rigidly uh attached to what you envision the character to be. Um, but you have to be sort of both proactive in defining how you want it to be, but also at the same time reactive to how the actor delivers the lines and how the story changes the character, um, and and just kind of roll with it. So uh yeah, I guess the short answer after that long ramble to your question is generally speaking, it's not a writer per character, it's more collaborative. But um, in actuality, I think people do gravitate towards certain characters that they either identify with or like or or just enjoy writing for the most.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Right. What fun that must be. Because it really comes across. We were so connected to those characters. You couldn't wait for the next episode, you know. It was good.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Well, yeah, HBO has always been so good at that with you know developing uh deep worlds of characters, whether it was The Wire or Sopranos or Game of Thrones or you know, any of those shows, um, they've been so such richly developed worlds that um, you know, I think there's there's characters in each that you you like, you hate, you feel for, you root against all of it. So um, yeah, really just a very unique and and special experience to be a part of that, even in in such a small way.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

You know, I went to an event one time where HBO was talking to filmmakers about the type of films they wanted. And they said, if you think your program belongs on HBO, PBS, and uh um I've forgotten Showtime or something like that, uh, don't bring it to us because we don't want anything that PBS would run, or we don't want anything or CBS or anybody else. They said we want we have uh highly intelligent people paying for this service, and we want to deliver extremely uh high quality content, period. So if you don't strive for the top, don't come to us, is what they were saying.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, I think HBO is still kind of that gold standard. Um, you know, Netflix has had some more, I don't know, prestige dramas recently. Um, and some of the other streamers too. I think uh FX has done a really good job with that. Um, but HBO, I think, is still the gold standard. I mean, whether it's, you know, you said Sopranos, Game of Thrones, Succession, it's just been, you know, every couple of years they're gonna crank out a new, a new hit, and they're they're really great at finding these sort of literate, smart um projects uh to put out there.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

Yeah, they're great. So now let's cover your journey. Could you share a bit about your journey from riding the wire to becoming the executive producer at Mesmeric Media?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Uh yeah, sure. So um I went to undergrad um film school at the University of Miami and kind of knew I wanted to work at least partly on the business side of the industry and not just be um I don't think I had the artistic ability um to be a director or a cinematographer, and I didn't have the technical ability to be an editor or something like that. Um, I liked writing. I wasn't sure if I was good enough at it to do it for a profession. And, you know, a lot of times even if you are good enough at it, it's it's such a small subset of people that really make it as a as a paid writer that I made sure with each job I took and each step along the way that I was learning uh the business side of the industry as well. So um I had a professor in undergrad um who had run, I think he ran MGM way, way back in the day. He was he was old by the time he was a professor. Um, and this was 30 years ago, but he used to always say that the best advice he would give to people coming up in the business would be, you know, get the jobs and and work and learn and do the internships, but also um if you want to sort of jump the line or get an edge up on your peers to go to law school or business school um and learn uh specialized skill set. So I wasn't good enough at math or or smart enough for business school, so I ended up in law school um and learned uh specialized really for the most part in entertainment law. Um came out and worked, you know, uh in entertainment law and business affairs on projects. So I was at the same time, I was learning how to write and produce and market films. I was also learning sort of the nuts and bolts of what goes into making deals and financing and how the just the business side of the industry works. And um I just found myself gravitating toward that um toward producing because that was to me um the one part of the industry I think that really not just allowed you, but it required you to have sort of you know one foot in the creative space and one foot in the business space. So um, so as I'd work on shows, you know, it sort of started as all creative, and then I realized I had to pay rent and uh eat and things like that. So um I sort of shifted directed directions to where it was almost all the business and legal side, but I still wanted to get back to the creative side. So I was always learning and just kind of growing that skill set. Um, and slowly it went from you know, maybe 90% law or business and 10% creative to probably the inverse of that. Um, and then now as a as an EP and one of the founders of Mesmeric, uh I really do get to do kind of both parts of it. So, you know, one day I'll be or parts of a day I'll be negotiating a deal with the network or you know, working with our lawyers and agents to do that. And other parts of the day is um, you know, boots on the ground, developing shows, finding new talent for shows, creating creating content, um, and coming up with the creative ideas of it too. So it's been uh an interesting journey sometimes, roundabout, but um I think with uh you know kind of defined goals in mind and um now working as an EP uh primarily in television, um, it really has been just the culmination of of all of that. Um and just a really unique and special experience that I'm very grateful for to be able to to to work on every aspect of a television show from the creative side to the business side through the distribution and the marketing and communications and all of it. So uh yeah, feel super lucky to have had the experiences I've had that have led me to where I am today.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

It was a very smart move going to law school, really, Michael, because that's the first thing that everybody needs, and little do they know it that you you uh you're not supposed to, you shouldn't take a breath without having your lawyer at your side. Uh, I have seen so many people lose out in the industry because of one word, one small sentence uh that didn't give them the money, creators who didn't know there was such a thing as a creative title, right? Um, all of these things that you're that the legal side carries are so important that uh that put you ahead of almost everybody, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, it's been you know, there's times when I question it and say, Oh man, why did I waste you know three years and um Lord knows how much money going to law school, but um but I find that I do use the skills uh much more often than I expected to, yeah, partly in and have and what you said, so making sure, you know, that deals put in front of us seem right, or if we're trying to sign talent that you know we're making the right deals. But then also just sort of the sort of the soft skills you get from all schools, so learning how to how to write persuasively, how to speak, you know advocating for a case in moot court or mock trial is not a whole lot different than uh pitching a show to a network executive. So um so I think it's yeah, it's been something I've used a lot more than I expected to, and and times when I kind of regret having spent those years in law school, um I've been very quickly reminded that they weren't a waste at all and um and their skills that I use every day, um sometimes subconsciously, but they've all contributed to to my uh to my career. Um so yeah, it was a great experience. And and I enjoyed law school. I mean, it was a fun uh kind of break from the entertainment industry. I you know, I worked in marketing and communications on films for a couple years before law school. Um so it was nice to go back to school and and immerse myself in that world again and then come back out with be able to combine uh all of the learning into one uh career path.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Well done. Well, let's talk about working with major networks because uh I'd love to know what insights you gain from producing shows like In Performance at the White House and the PBS News Hour. Those are great shows.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, working um for you know with PBS and for a PBS producing station was uh an awesome experience. Um you learn a lot of different skill sets, you learn how to do things on a much more limited budget, um, since PBS budgets tend to be less than other networks a lot of times, or the or the funding models are so different. Um you have sort of the gravitas and the uh I don't know, the mission-driven aspect of it where you have to deliver, you know, content of a certain quality um to meet PBS parameters and guidelines, standards and practices. Um, and it's uh almost like an honor to work in such a trusted industry. You know, PPS and NPR, I think, are consistently ranked among the highest news and media organizations with how much the public trusts them and values them. So um, so I think you have to take that seriously, but at the same time, uh it was a lot of fun. I mean, I think still to this day, you know, I've worked with probably most networks or streaming platforms at this point, but in performance at the White House, uh I produced a TV series from the 930 call The Music Venue here in Washington, DC, uh, for PBS that I got to create and direct and produce. Um, those are some of my favorite experiences and the projects of which I'm probably most proud and most enjoyed working on. So uh, and still with with the work we do at Mesmeric Now, um, while it's not in any way solely focused on public television, um understanding that world, knowing that world, and realizing kind of knowing how to work within those confines, I think gives us as a company a leg up over other production companies that you know just produce for cable or just produce for streamers or whatever. Um I think the maybe the secret, or at least it was surprising to me, is that the PBS business model, if you do it well as a producer, can actually be the most lucrative versus you know kind of getting a per episode fee from Netflix or whatever it might be, or you know, streaming revenue, um which can be pennies per stream. Um, you know, if you know how to produce high quality content affordably and smartly, um, the PBS model can really be very financially rewarding for producers as well.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Absolutely. That's well said. Thank you. And so let's discuss the art of unscripted content, because you're known for creating some award-winning unscripted content. So tell us about this genre and what about the unscripted world uh excites you, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, it's uh well, so I think a couple things. I mean, I think um it's ever-changing, right? Just like everything else. So I think some people hear reality TV or unscripted and they think of just housewives or you know, some of the kind of freak show stuff, the dating shows, things like that. Um, but unscripted can mean also can mean serious documentaries or live music or news formats. Um so I think what's exciting to me about it and why I've sort of specialized in it is it is a cheaper uh and quicker path to entry than going through um the scripted process, um, you know, which can take years to go from idea to screen. Um whereas with unscripted, you can be really kind of capture the zeitgeist and be in the moment. So um we can put together shows quickly and and if you know, if you step back and look at it, like most of the world is unscripted content, you know, like I said, whether it's news footage or whether it's documentary or whether it is the housewives or a game show or a dating show, uh, it's just such a broad world of content um that there's never an opportunity to be bored or not find something new to do in there. Um and you know, frankly, it's it's a it's better business for the networks. So there's more work in that area. Um, it allows us to you know return uh investments quicker when people support us in it. And um just really gives you a broad base of experience, uh, diversity, always learning something new, learning about different worlds, different people, finding new stories. It's almost like you're uh an investigative journalist part of the time, trying to find, you know, oh, I didn't know this was a profession. This would make an interesting TV show, or this is a really big personality who'd be a good star for something. So um I think the pace of it, it just moves so much quicker than in scripted, um, than in scripted content. Um, and that was part of what drew me to it. And then, you know, once you get in that world, I think uh you sort of tend to stay within your lanes um for the most part. Although uh that said we're now starting to do more scripted work at mesmeric as well. So um it's good to bring that back. But uh I I don't think unscripted's ever going away. You know, I don't know. I guess maybe it really kind of found its heyday when MTV did the real world 30 plus years ago. Um, but it continues to evolve and grow and and and uh it's just a much higher success rate, I think, than in scripted shows. So um, so yeah, I haven't regretted it. Um I enjoy it very much, but I'm also really excited about the opportunity to put a toe back in the scripted waters.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Well, I I was always amazed at uh the shows about refurbishing homes, how to flip a home or refurbish it. They went to the roof with uh they really hit uh a market, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Oh yeah. I mean it's a you know, I mean, to some extent, it's always like what's the I don't know, what's the hot new thing, right? And unscripted. So for a while it was pawn shops and it was house flipping, and now it seems to be um, well, then there was a I think a little run where it was paranormal content. Um, and now we still seem to be sort of in the true crime era, although I think it's starting to kind of level off a little bit. And um, and and there's always going to be room for an interesting new way into the home flipping shows or to the you know the pollen shop shows or the kind of discovery channel, you know, here are people doing different. Difficult jobs shows. So if things have peaks and valleys, I think subject matters within unscripted, but for the most part, you know, the core ones are here to stay. There's always going to be food shows, there's always going to be travel shows, there's always going to be sort of DIY type shows, there'll always be dating shows. So uh things will be run hot and cold, and networks will prioritize different things, but there is also a through line where where certain uh genres will always have a seat at the table.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yes, absolutely. Well, um tell us about Miss Merrick Media's mission. What is the founding vision behind Miss Merrick and how does that differ from traditional production companies?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Uh yeah, sure. So we formed um sort of, I guess officially about a year ago. Um I was running content farm here in Washington, DC, and met a couple of guys up in Philadelphia who had a production company that was mostly doing branded content, commercials, things like that, and wanted to do more uh traditional television. Um so they had things I didn't have with editors and graphic designers and things like that. And I had experience in uh you know working with all the networks and and most importantly is we all liked each other and got along well and sort of shared values um and and a mission. Um so started working together informally and and formalized things about a year ago and rebranded as mesmeric. Um, and I would say that our mission now is um, especially at this kind of I don't know, tumultuous time in the industry. Um, but our mission now is just to find interesting content, um, to elevate creators and give other people, uh give everybody a seat at the table. So we'll kind of eliminate the gatekeeping that can happen in this industry where production or networks will just keep coming back to the same production company over and over again. We uh make sure that we are highly collaborative, always looking for you know somebody new and young and talented in the business. And um ultimately the mission is just to find cool people and make fun projects. Um, you know, find people we like working with, we trust, we enjoy, um, who have respect for the industry, for themselves, the product, um, uh, and to make good content affordably and to have a good time doing it, and to be collaborative and always sort of be looking at new business models for how to do things. So we've gone from you know this era where everybody was throwing tons of money into development of unscripted into recent years where budgets have been slashed because of whether it was COVID or writer's strike or all the mergers and acquisitions in the industry, um, where now you know uh per episode budgets are cheaper. So we we just constantly evolve to find new ways of doing business. Um, I think uh mesmeric that's been one of our strong suits is is we make stuff that looks like it costs much more money than it does. We partner with big brands to develop shows around existing IP. We work with young creators to give them an opportunity. Uh and we work kind of, you know, we are producers and we work for producers. So it's it's there are so many skilled people in this industry who have been marginalized or you know, kind of cut adrift by mergers and and and and networks changing shape that uh that we are able to now bring them back into the fold, um, which has been really nice to do as well. So um it's been a great year for us so far. We're super excited about the projects in our pipeline and and some of the stuff we have coming up um this year and beyond. And we're growing. Uh, we have a board of directors um that includes James Brown from CBS Sports, who's just awesome one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, but also has access to, I would say, very close to literally every professional athlete. Um, guy named Gene McCarthy, who was at Nike for a bunch of years and helped launch the Jordan brand, um, who is sort of our business advisor with it, and um uh reality TV pioneer, um, Ernie Avia, who was at OP for about 20 years and helped create and develop shows like Deadliest Catch and all kind of the discovery tough job shows. Um, and we're adding people to that board still. So we are um very blessed to you know have four principals in the company who grinded out day-to-day and three and growing list of uh board members who can open doors for us, bring us talent, and sort of give us a little gravitas that we might not otherwise have. So uh super exciting times for us and challenging time in industry, but I think we we're especially well situated to navigate it well.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Wow, it sounds like it. That's great. And I have heard other people who would take on a stars, for example, uh early on in their career when they just knew that this person was talented, and they would help them fund their films and get them off the ground or fund films for them. And and then they had long-lasting relationships. So I guess that's what Ms. Merrick is doing, looking for people that are talented and helping them achieve their goals that is when they merge with yours, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I so yeah, you know, I'm certainly not going to claim that everything we do is just out of a sense of altruism and you know, to give other people an opportunity, but that is something we care about. But um, you know, we also have an obligation to our funders and sponsors and ourselves and our families to to make money too. So a lot of times, you know, by working uh sort of working smarter, not harder, we're able to um both give people an opportunity and at the same time, you know, create a business model that is sustaining and can navigate rocky waters like what the industry's been in in recent years. Um, so there is certainly an element of altruism in it. We try to work with nonprofits and do you know give back when we can, but at the same time, you know, we're looking for ways to to grow our business and to become a bigger player in the industry too. And and those things don't have to be in conflict with each other. Uh in fact, I think we've found it's it's quite the opposite that by by being good people and and you know giving back to the community as well, that does open business opportunities as well. And instead of just trying to, you know, squeeze every every penny out of a project, sometimes it's better to be more collaborative. And you know, I always say whenever somebody proposes a project to us or or wants to partner with us on something good, that I'm much happier owning 50% of something than 100% of nothing. So uh that's kind of one of our guiding principles is you know, we'll we'll partner with smart people, good people, and we'll find a way to make it work.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Great. That's a great way to work. Feeling that way is excellent. So let's talk about navigating industry change because the landscape is changing. So, how long do you stay ahead of trends and tell me what major changes you see impacting producers in the near future?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Um well, the near future will be interesting, uh I think in part to see what happens with with things like AI and um just uh I don't know, the contraction, I guess, of the industry. Um in you know, the past gosh, I don't know, five years is it's been it's been non-stop change. You know, we went from sort of the glory days of the unscripted business um and the the dawn of the streaming wars when there were so many hours to fill, you know, that that people were just getting development deals or production deals thrown at them all the time. Uh and then that sort of rolled right into COVID, where all of a sudden we had to figure out how to make shows that didn't involve being in person. And when that finally went away, we were able to go back to normal work. Uh the industry was undergoing changes as companies were buying up smaller companies, and you know, we hit the writer strike and the actors strike. So it it really has always changed, and I think you always have to be evolving. And for us, and for me, uh you know, the way to stay on top of it is to read everything, absorb everything, try to as best you can to figure out what's next and where the industry's heading, and and not just adapt to it, but also plan for it. Um, and and be sort of thinking a couple steps ahead. So, you know, right now for us that means things like making content look great but cost less, partnering with brands um for sponsored content and things like that, and being highly collaborative um with other producers and creators to uh, you know, you have to have more irons in the fire than ever before to have success. So, whereas we used to be able to have a development slate of a dozen shows or something like that, and know that a handful of them would get made and that would cover us for the year, now it's more like you know, you need 30 or 40 shows in the pipeline. And um so yeah, um, which is intimidating, but at the same time it's exciting. Um, and it it does kind of force you to be uh to be nimble and and and think creatively about how to solve problems. Um so I don't know what the next few years hold for the industry, but I know whatever it is, whatever direction it turns, we'll be ready for it. And if we're not ready for it ahead of time, we'll catch up quickly. Um, you know, we do things networking things uh formally and informally. Um, always you know, talking to people, we we really put a lot of value on bringing in uh people younger in their career. So whether that's through our internship program or working with schools, I'll sometimes go back and guest lecture at Miami or or places where I've been to school. Um, but learning from younger people what's coming down the pipeline um has been super helpful for us. Um just sort of always keeping an ear to the ground and and and figuring out you know where things are headed has been really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Yeah, this is so key, learning from younger people what's coming. Because I mean to know that people don't want to watch a full film, that it's too long, an hour and 30 minutes. That these are the young people I'm talking about. They took Casablanca, I heard, and and cut it into short pieces and put it online. And it was a hit, but only in the short pieces. So um uh it's vertical content, Michael, that's taking off right now. Have you found that?

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the line between TV and movies has never been more blurred, right? Um, so you know we talked about The Wire at the beginning and or shows like Succession or whatever, or Game of Thrones, you know, the the budgets for those are similar to feature films. Um, and sort of the prestige around television, I think, is sometimes even greater than that of theatrical movies. So um yeah, the short attention spans uh yeah, it's still an interesting model, right? Because TikTok, you know, when it shut down for 12 hours of the day, if you asked anybody probably between the ages of 10 and 16 about that, they would have thought the world was ending, whereas most adults wouldn't have cared. Um, but then you know, what was it, four or five years ago, where there was a billion dollars put behind trying to launch Quibi, which was going to be all short form content, it failed miserably. So I don't think anyone's really correct the code of you know what works with regard to short form versus long form and whatever. But um, but I do know that, like I said, I mean the line between theatrical motion pictures and television has never been more blurry, and I think that's a good thing. Um, it's it's elevated the the quality of content on TV. Um, it's been forced to adapt to that. Um, and I think maybe movie theater owners or movie producers wouldn't feel the same way about it because they've seen their business kind of be um you know stolen a little bit by television. Um, but for us on the more TV side of things, it it's been it's been great.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Yes. Well, now let's get into concept to screen. So please walk us through the creative process for taking a show concept, making it compelling for audiences and networks.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Um I wish I knew I knew. Um I think we'd be more successful if I had a better answer, but um it can be frustrating. Um, you know, sometimes you'll get, so we'll get, you know, I don't know, on a monthly or bi-monthly basis network mandates from our agents. So they'll say, okay, you know, here's what Lifetime's looking for, here's what Bravo is looking for, here's what Netflix is looking for. Um, and you'll develop shows around that. And by the time you develop them and get them to them, they've changed what they're looking for. So we've sort of, you know, we keep the mandates in the back of our head, but we also just ultimately a good story, a good character, a good hook, a good something is going to break through no matter what they say the mandates are. So um so for us, it's it's not just a numbers game, but it is also partially a numbers game. So, you know, we'll listen to pitches from people, we'll we read everything. Um, you know, when I have development interns working for me, I'll have them subscribe to every news aggregator to find, you know, what's the creative story? Who's this interesting person, you know, in a in a small town in the Midwest who's doing something different with house flipping or you know, restaurants or whatever it may be, and just always be looking for sort of that breakthrough story or personality or whatever it is. And then from there, it's just um trying to find the right home and the right fit. So we've had shows where you know we thought, oh boy, this thing is absolutely perfect for History Channel or whatever, that you know, they're gonna take it in a second and they pass immediately. And other shows where we think uh this is never gonna fly and somebody's interested in it immediately. So I think part of it is uh knowing what you don't know and recognizing that you know you have to float with the process and and and be adaptable and be open to change and open to suggestion, open to new ideas. Um and then you know, for us a development process is find the good ideas, find the good partners, find the good stories, flesh out what a show about them might look like. So whether that's doing some tape, you know, whether sending out a crew to film them, or doing it even just via Zoom or something like that, and seeing, you know, just because somebody has an interesting story doesn't mean that will translate to being uh a telegenic or charismatic personality on screen. Um so making sure they can, you know, check that box too, and then just sort of putting meat on the bone. So here's the person, here's their world, here are the storylines that can take. Um, a lot of times now when we go to networks with shows, you know, it used to be all right, can we get you know six episodes out of this? And now they say, Oh, can we get six seasons out of this? So um you you sort of have to have that in mind with with what you develop. Uh not to say that there's not a room room in the world for one-off documentaries or limited series or whatever, but from a business standpoint, a lot of times now it's like, all right, how do we do a hundred episodes of this? Um, so we we do try to uh find those projects too that you know could be sort of evergreen um and and always find a place in the world. Um and then from there, development is just sort of going back and forth. You know, it's you get the idea, you flush it out, you get it pitch ready, our agent will do the initial outreach to networks for us, set up pitch meetings, and then we'll pitch and we'll get feedback. And sometimes that will be a yes, sometimes it'll be a no, and most times it'll be somewhere in between that, which will require us to either go back to the table and redo the deck or recut the sizzle reel or reshape the focus of the show. Um, and just you know, try to sort of uh adapt it to the feedback you're getting. It's really, I think, super important to be an active listener in the process. I think so often when people are pitching, they just want to get their point across and like, here's why this show is great. And um, but ultimately you're gonna be much more successful if you spend more of your energy, more of your concentration on listening to the feedback you're getting, verbal, nonverbal, whatever, from the people you're pitching to, um, so that you can be receptive to that and responsive to that and come back to them with something that makes it easier for them to say yes.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Nonverbal is really important. You know, I've as I said, I've been in the industry for years. And in New York, I dealt with a lot of Italians who were really lovely people, great to have as business associates. But they always came in twos, Michael. One listener and one taught, right? They had the listener, because your body language will tell so much, but uh that's how they worked as a pair. One listener. Uh, but I now I like you what you were saying about writing for uh long term and looking at a project because the producer of Yellowstone said he wasn't writing a series, he was writing 80 feature films.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Yeah, yeah. Um well, yeah, I mean, he's on a on an all-time great run, right? I mean we should all we should we should all have 10% of the success Taylor Sheridan's had. Um, and I'm a fan. I mean, uh his I don't know if his first movie, first or second movie, Hell or High Water, is one of my favorite movies ever. Um, and I enjoyed Yellowstone as well. And and if liked most of the shows he's done, I really just liked uh Land Landman, which just finished its first season. But yeah, I mean uh you know, he went from being a day player on Sons of Anarchy, um, to you know, learning while he was learning how to be a writer and absorbing all of that to to writing and putting himself out there doing it. But um it really is the same. I mean, what he said is is true. I mean, it's not just you know, I'm making a season of television, it's I'm giving you a hundred a hundred movies. Um and yeah, that can be intimidating. It's it's a lot of creative energy. It's you have to find worlds that lend themselves to that uh that quantity of content, not just quality, but quantity also. Um and in some sense that's easier in a scripted world because you know you can just bring on a new character. Um, but you know, the obviously the the not so secretive secret is that unscripted is is barely scripted as well, a lot of times. So um, you know, if you need to introduce somebody to your unscripted world, uh you can manipulate reality uh to do that as well.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

I wonder, Michael, how he sold Landman because that when you just look at some of the scenes, it's just an oil rig working. It's it has it's so dead, so storyless. Uh this arid plane and this machine. And yet he created all these great characters and put so much inner energy in it. It's amazing what he did.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah, I mean, and well, and the cast deserves so much credit too. And Billy Bob Thornton's just always great, right? Always fun to watch. But um, yeah, he's got just, you know, I I think he's got Taylor Sheridan's got a leg up now, and that sort of everything he does is gonna get the at least the initial, you know, uh, all right, I'll check this out. Um, whereas, you know, somebody new may not get that. And he's got the creative freedom to take chances with things like that, to take what may seem boring, you know, watching an oil rig out in the Oklahoma fields, um, but build like a really rich world around that. Um and again, that's it's a credit to him as a as a writer and as a showrunner, but also credit to the talent. Um I mean, the cast of his shows, you know, have Harrison Ford and Hellman Mirror in one of the Yellowstone prequels, and Billy Bob Thornton and Demi Moore, and yeah, in Landman and Stallone and in the uh Tulsa show. Um, you know, he's very uh fortunate to get to work with so many actors, but it's it's not he just flucked into it. I mean, he worked harder and he has a skill set, and um he's he's produced results and Results will give you more opportunities, always.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Always, always. And craft, like you. He expanded his craft. Uh, my daughter said she read where he was uh he looked at the day sheet and saw he was a rider. It had to be a western. He was rider number 13, and he said, That's it. I I'm tired of this.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Yeah, that was uh it was when he was on Sons of Anarchy. Um that he was, yeah, something like 13th on the call sheet or whatever. And uh and I think uh just realizing, and it's and it was you know, on a much smaller level, what we've been trying to do with Mesmeric is you know, rather than sort of be supplicants who go to the bigger production companies say, Oh, you know, will you produce our show for us or whatever is is shift the paradigm to where we're following the shots and trusting in ourselves to to find the right things. Um, so you know, we're out, uh, we're gonna be out this year fundraising um so that we can green light our own shows um that we believe in selectively, obviously. Um, but we can green light stuff and not sort of be tied to network mandates and budgets, um, and just you know, kind of placing a large bet on ourselves, um, you know, versus just hoping for a seat at the table. And he's a great example of how well that can work if you do it right. But uh unfortunately the landscape is probably littered with plenty of people who thought they could do it right and didn't as well. So um, you know, you have to sort of, I don't know, if that 80-20 rule or whatever is still accurate, you know, 80% of their projects are sort of safe, and you take a stab at something big with 20 of them. Um it's probably not a hard and fast number and something that always changes, but we do try to strike that balance of all right, here are the safe, easy shows that you know we think we'll definitely sell, and here are some that are a little more out there, and if they take off, you know, they'll really take off. Um, so um, yeah, he's a terrific example of of kind of putting faith in yourself versus uh trusting in others to give you an opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Yes. You sound like Orion when it was starting. Um, and they brought us so many great films. So I I'm looking forward to what Miss Merrick produces, but the point is there are many people who do not understand what develop development means. So could you just take a minute and try to explain to us how important it is to package something, to do the development that's needed to sell the film?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah, sure. So I mean, I think development is maybe I don't know what the exact recipe would be, but it's some mix of research and marketing, um, essentially. So it's it's research defines, you know, the new stories, the new characters, the new whatever it is. And then the marketing part of it is packaging that up uh in a digestible format that enables you to successfully pitch it. Um so you know, one thing you sort of have to understand is what the networks are looking for and how they like to be communicated to. They don't want to do the work of digging through this idea you sent them to find what the story is. You really have to spoon feed it to them and say, like, all right, here's the show, here are the main characters, here's the first 10 episodes, and you know, in some detail, and here's what the next 40 can look like. Um, but it all starts with finding good stories, finding interesting people, finding the right characters, finding, you know, the niche, the thing that nobody's done before, um, or finding something someone has done before, but doing it differently. Um, and then from there, like you said, you know, packaging it up, marketing it, believing in it, um, having the confidence behind it, um, and and not just going out there sort of pitching something you may or not believe in, but really standing behind what you're pitching, even if you don't in your heart believe it. You know, we have some shows uh in our pipeline that you know, of course I care about some more than others. Um, you know, some of them are are just silly, you know, kind of uh I don't know, traditional reality TV. Um, and those could be the ones that you know pay for my retirement funds. So I think you have to give the same attention to the passion projects as you do to the paycheck projects.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

Exactly. Well, looking ahead, uh tell us about upcoming projects uh that you're most excited about.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Oh, yeah, sure. So um cash couple um come to mind that I guess we're allowed to talk about. Um we have a show um that's about the last racetrack in Alaska, um, auto racing track. Um, and it's run by this really cool woman, um, took it over from her family and is trying to basically revive and revitalize auto racing in Alaska. Um, so that will be hopefully coming out this year. Um, we have recently been uh signing deals with brands um to develop content around their products, and we uh are working with the largest black-owned spirits company in the world, which is uh Uncle Nearest Whiskey based out of Tennessee. Um and they're just a fascinating company. Um, guy Nearest Green was a freed slave who taught Jack Daniel the art of making whiskey. Um yeah, amazing. Um and a couple Fawn and Keith Weaver um found out about this and and developed a product based on uh Nearest Green, um, started Uncle Nearest Whiskey, and it's just grown astronomically. It's a billion-dollar company now. Uh and we recently signed a deal with them to develop some shows around some of their products and some of the things they're doing, um, including a live music show from a venue they own. Um, so that will be uh a fun one for us to work on as well. Um and um, gosh, I don't know what else. I mean, I I think those are probably two that I'm most excited about. Um, and we have, I would say, between development, pre-production, production, and distribution, maybe 40 shows total in our pipeline. Um, so you know, we're not at the stage yet where we get to call our own shots and just pick which ones are are greenlit and which ones go. So it's it's hard to be too excited about any of them because you don't know you know what's gonna get the funding or what's gonna get what's needed to push it over the line. But um, those two I feel uh very confident in that they'll happen this year. So I'm excited about those. And and out of the 40 plus in our pipeline, uh you know, a couple of them are gonna get made and they'll be great and they'll be fun to work on. And um and uh we'll make the best of them. If if they're not the ones that we thought were gonna get made, hopefully we'll have struck gold from an unexpected place. And if they are the ones that we've poured our hearts and souls into, then we're we'll be especially lucky. So um, but I the whole creative process is fun, and you know, developing is fun and coming up with a new idea and finding new stuff is great, but um nothing beats the kind of teamwork and camaraderie of being on set with a crew and a cast and everybody and really everybody working together to to make something happen. So um I don't mean it to be a cop out of an answer, but I'm excited about all the shows we have in our pipeline and anything we get to make, we are uh blessed to be in this business and appreciate it every day.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

So wow, Michael, thank you so much for the time you've given us today and the information. It's very inspiring to hear your story and to listen to uh you all about your company. I'm sure that uh in a year we must hear what you've done and how far you've come because that can make a big difference. This will be a good year for you, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Well, I certainly hope you're right. Um, I feel really good about where we are as a company. Uh, we've never had a more interesting, diverse, and exciting pipeline of products, and we're cultivating some really great relationships with talent and with brands, with other production companies. Um and yeah, we're really excited about it. So thank you um for the opportunity to talk about what we're doing. And uh, you know, I would I would love to come back in a year and tell you how successful this past year has been, and hopefully we'll be in that place where we can do that. But uh regardless of how it goes, we're we're enjoying the ride and excited about everything that's that's coming up.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Well, we are too, because we want unique and creative shows, and thank you for that for keeping your public as the key. What you want, what you're bringing us can be entertaining and family oriented. Everything we've talked about, your whole family could be watching the show. That's one thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Yeah, I mean, we we do try, you know, not always, but um, some shows are probably not designed for co-viewing, but we do increasingly try to find more co-viewing opportunities. And if uh, you know, if people are are listening to this and want to pitch us ideas, our our doors are open. They can write me, uh Michael at mesmeric.media. Um, we'll send over our NDA form and read somebody's submission. And hopefully, you know, somebody out there hears this and has a great idea for a show and doesn't know how to get it made, and we can be helpful to them in the process and also helpful to ourselves in finding new projects. So um always looking for the next best thing and great people to work with and and happy to connect with anybody who might want to speak with us.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Thank you, Michael. You're gonna make a lot of people happy. Like if we have all those filmmakers listening to this podcast, and we have them with from the heart. So thank you. That'll be great.

unknown 55:36

Good.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Thank you, Claire, for hosting the show. Oh, yes, as always. And Michael, thank you so much for your expanded view on things. Um, you gave some fresh perspective, and I know that we all really appreciate that. It helps us along the way.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Well, thank you. It's been my pleasure. It's been it's been very fun speaking with you. And like I said, I'm really happy to talk to anybody, you know, whether it's just somebody who wants to get a job in the business or somebody who has an idea for a show or whatever it may be. Um, I've always enjoyed the mentoring and coaching process, and I've certainly benefited from it both as a mentor or coach, or having you know, others mentor or coach me. So um I appreciate y'all giving us this forum and uh and happy to connect anytime. Okay, terrific. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

All right, be well, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Thank you. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

Thank you, Michael.