Jon Reiss - New Ways to Make Money Marketing and Distributing Your Film

Jon Reiss shares marketing and crowdfunding strategies, real distribution budgets, community building, detailed ancillary and digital distribution revenues. His website is www.jonreiss.comFor information about Carole Dean and From the Heart Productions please visit www.FromtheHeartProductions.com and "Like" our facebook page https://www.facebook.com/fromtheheartgrants 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

South South Radius.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Now, in its second edition, Carol Dean's popular book, The Art of Film Funding, has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer. How to make an ask for money. Create your story structure and your trailer. Legal advice, fair use, successful crowdfunding, how to ask for music rights, and what insurance you can't shoot without. Available on Amazon under Carol Dean and at FromTheHeartProductions.com.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Claire, you may see.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Hi, and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Papan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding. Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Our guest is John Reach. He's an author and media strategist who helps filmmakers and companies navigate the new distribution and marketing landscape. He's worked with and consulted for Paramount Pictures, Screen Australia, Film Independent, Creative Scotland, and numerous film schools and festivals to devise ways to help educate and and help independent filmmakers in the new economic landscape. So, Carol and I want to thank you, John, for joining us. We have many listeners who use your information on marketing.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to be here. I'm always happy to come on um and be talk to Carol in chat. It's you know, and get a lot of it's always a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

So I know that there are a lot of things that uh you do with marketing that, you know, really make a difference in a filmmaker's life. And um I think perhaps probably the best thing to ask you about first is you you've actually been so far ahead of everyone on the importance of marketing your film while you're while you are making your own film. Let's start with the new buzzword, PMD. Give us an understanding of PMD.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Um yeah, it's um the PMD is actually a concept I came up with in the the book, I think outside the box office, because I was you know, I was realizing that um filmmakers needed to do this work, but you know, had so much, were so absorbed in making the film that it was very difficult to, you know, to also deal with marketing while or deal with the things that you need to prepare for marketing or any aspect of that while you're making the film, so that someone else should come on board um to help and be a new crew member. So, you know, since there wasn't a crew member that existed, I named it the producer of marketing distribution. And this person is basically to um you know to do everything that is needed to prep for distribution and marketing and eventually execute the distribution and marketing for a film. So that's identifying who the audience is, um figuring out how to engage with that audience, potentially starting to engage with that audience if it's appropriate early on or during production, which in many cases it is appropriate, some cases not so much, and then figuring out how that audience wants to engage with media so that when you actually are releasing the film, you know, are releasing it in the ways that the audience wants to receive it, you know, because different people consume media in different ways. And um, you know, some people still watch DVDs, for instance, and uh some people, some audiences can care less about a DVD. So, you know, you have to think about what your audience wants and um being able to deliver to them, and then also go through the you know, it really ramps up um, you know, kind of more in post-production and you know, in the festival circuit, applying to film, you know, figuring out creating a festival strategy, which would be part of an overall what I would call a live event theatrical uh strategy, you know, a merchandise strategy and a digital strategy, and then exit executing those strategies. So it's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty involved and complicated position, which I've done on a few films, and you know, um, and you know, I think it's there's you know, there's only so many people who I think have this skill set, unfortunately, still to do this. And I think some sometimes what people find is that they end up splitting up the role into different people, because some people are really good at marketing and social media, and some people are better at executing the distribution aspects. So sometimes you might need to find you might need a couple of people to um to execute. And but you still need what I still feel is that one person should supervise all of those activities, and that person would be the PMD.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

This is brilliant. Yeah, thank you so much, John. Let me go back with what one of the first things that you said was to identify your audience. So give us an example of how can people, how do they identify their audience?

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Um well, uh you start with the film and you think about who, you know, the who would be interested in watching that film, you know. And um it's much the reason that it's been a little bit easier for documentaries to adopt this new model is because usually within documentaries there's you know, there's either uh an interest group that's already being appealed to within the documentary, and obviously everyone wants to go abroad, but if you're making a an environmental film about global warming, you know, there's clearly an audience for that that you can connect with. But there have also been narrative films that deal with global warming, um, one of which called Future Weather, and um which was in the ISP lab. And you know, they also went after those organizations. And so there are, you know, there are even within narrative films, you can identify specific, you know, niches that might be interested. If there's a film, again, we had a film in the lab recently that dealt with organic farming, and so that would be a natural audience for them. Um another film that deals with beatboxing, you know, that's a natural audience for them. So um, you know, so there are you just have to be, you know, s smart about how that works. And then for me, you know, or about what your audiences are. To me, you know, audiences can also aren't just niche, you know, about subject areas, they can also be geographic audiences. You know, there's a lot of regional films being made, and so those filmmakers should really think about you know um their the region that they work within and and getting support. Like for instance, there's a film, again, I'm using all these lab films as references, um you know, that called Sakanaga, and that took place in a particular town um in Georgia, and it was based on a story that took a place. And so he did his premiere there and got a lot of press, even got the Atlanta press up there and really created and even made money off of that screen. He actually four walled the local theater and got so much interest and so many people out there that he was able to make money from that audience.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Wonderful, John. Well, um finding the audience, identifying your audience, then engaging. First, you say you need to decide how to engage your audience and then set about engaging them. So, how to engage them would mean, do you do that through social networking or emails? Is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Well, yeah, I think there's a variety. I think sometimes there's too much emphasis put on social media, um, and everyone thinks it's all about social media. But, you know, I think organizational partnerships are as or potentially even more important. Um and so, you know, for instance, if you're doing something about um global warming, you wouldn't just go, you obviously you might think about using social media and engaging people on that level, but I would also be contacting environmental organizations who are already connected to that audience. You know, um the the difficulty is that you're making a film and you know you're unless you're gonna continually make films on the subject, you know, which maybe you are going to, and there are some filmmakers who do that, and you know, you can it makes a lot of sense to develop your own audience around that film. Um but you know, these organizations have already done that, you know, and so and a lot of them appreciate having a piece of media uh to be able to connect with and or connect with their audiences. So that's you know, also I think also influencers, which is also kind of social media, but connecting people through connecting with influencers within the organ within the subject area or the audience niche, as it were. Um and organizations are one of those influencers. I think there's people who have the e or peep prominent bloggers within the sphere, certain celebrities, etc. You know, there's all different ways to connect with people. And um, you know, that's what I suggest. So that's so it's not just you know um um one way. And uh email is also really great, and um I think that that's to me still the highest rate of conversion um to you know get people to come on board uh a project or to purchase something. And I, you know, it's I really recommend that filmmakers work on developing their email lists.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Amen. I totally agree with you on that. From day one, I I have seen that. Being a fiscal sponsor and a partner with Indiegogo, I can tell you that that's the meat.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah, because that's the one thing where you're directly. Yeah, exactly. Because in the in social media converts a little, you know, converts some, you know, but you know, in in much less degrees than email does. Like when I was doing my CrowdFront campaign last last summer, you know, whenever I did an email blast, there was a spike in contributions, you know, but the social media, you know, was moderate, but nothing like the email conversion.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

That's right. There's something very personal about emails. It comes into your inbox and I like it. Um much more important to me. But I I wanted to talk about um connecting to these organizations. Uh the strategic partners is what they referred to so much. And I know that one of our conversations, I asked you how you were connecting to strategic partners, and you told me that I think it was on the cancer film you were making, that your first approach was just to introduce yourself, tell them about the film, and not make a big ask for anything but connect. And um so can you get into that more? I mean, how has that worked for you?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And then well, I mean we're still continuing discussions. In fact, I'm writing an email today in response to one of them in terms of how the how we see the relationship would work. You know, we've gotten, you know, I've met with them, you know, in person and talked to them on the phone and and um, you know, we've gone back and forth, and so now we're you know looking at next steps, and so now it starts getting a little more concrete. You know, you do want to be prepared for the even in that first meeting, you know, they will potentially ask you, what do you want from us? You know, and you need to be prepared to answer that, you know. And um, and I always say, well, you know, I want to the first thing I want to make sure is that this is a win-win relationship for both of us. I'm not here just to seek seek things from you. I want to be able to provide something to you, you know, as much as you know, we ask from you. And um so I think that's always that's very um that's always very appreciated from the organizations that I've spoken with to have that perspective. Um and you know, a lot of what you're you're trying to do is to use the you know, to have them help you with screenings outreach as well as outreach for when you are, you know, when your film's available for DVD or digital for purchase or rental. Um so you want that outreach and then you want to be able to provide as many things to them as possible, such as using the film for fundraisers, using being able to have them sell the DVD or the digital downloads, and then they get a percentage of that, or setting up where you know they you sell the film from your site, and people are able to donate to that charitable organization, or potentially pick amongst a few different partners and do potentially a sliding scale, like what the humble indie bundle allows, is that you can you know allow, put certain monies towards, you know, select how much money goes to the filmmaker and how much goes to the charity, et cetera. So we're definitely going to be doing that, you know, with our release. And I hope the technology is robust enough to enable us to do that at that time. I mean, I've been talking to um different platforms about that, and it's all this is on the horizon and possible. And this is, you know, actually, you wanted to talk about the book Selling the Film, Selling Your Film Outside the US, which I contributed a chapter to, which um the Film Collaborative just published, and um and the other my other writers on it, or not my other writers, but the other writers on the project, sorry, um, you know, Orley Ravide, uh Jeffrey Winter, Sherry Candler, and Wendy Bernfeld all, you know, wrote, and I was just one of the one of the contributors. And I I wrote a chapter about the Scottish Documentary Institute, which actually uh has had a full-time PMD on staff for the last two years. And uh we used one of their films as a case study. And within that case study, we talk about um working with organizations. It actually goes into pretty good depth about how to work with an organization, how they work with organizations, what they offer to the organizations. And one of them was one of the ways was they developed some technology with the district life platform that would be kind of a pay it. There's two things. One is you could contribute charitably, but you could also pay it forward in a way so that you would enable other people to be able to see the film. So there's a different, there are different ways that you different price levels or donation levels that you could choose that would not only not only pay for the film, but also pay either for other people to pay to watch the film or to donate to the charitable organizations. And um, you know, there's a fair amount, it's a very um tough subject, tough film. It's about um uh someone dying of ALS, and so the numbers aren't huge because it's kind of a depressing film, but what's interesting is the percentages and how many people contribute, the large percentage of people that contributed to charity from that campaign. And I think it's been shown over you know over the number of years that if in various case studies that if you provide people a way to add money for charitable purposes and pay what they want to pay, that people will generally pay more than what you're asking for to film. So, anyway, these are all different techniques. So actually, that's that chapter I bring it up is because it's gonna be hard to cover all this in an hour, it's hard to cover any of the stuff in an hour, even you know, a couple of hours. So if this is something that's interesting to you, I'd recommend getting the book. It's free. Um, you can get it for free from my website, but you can get it for free from the Selling Your Film website, but you can also get it for free from my website, you can click on. And if you do it from my website, you know, just the promotion, the little added promotion, then you'll be on my email list. And we've actually started um, you know, ramping up my my newsletter. I'm starting to do a quarterly newsletter that you know has a little bit of information about me, but I try to keep that to a minimum. Um, and what it mostly is, is you know, sort some sort of content about what's going on in the world, um, as well as links to different grants and um film festivals that are coming up and other kinds of things that generally people are interested in film would be interested in. So if you get the book from my website, then you'll be automatically signed up for my newsletter. And um so you'll get both, you know. And the way I announced the, you know, for instance, everyone on my newsletter, I send the announcements of the book with the link to the download, etc. So um that was our that was in the last newsletter.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Great. Yes. Uh your newsletter is superb. Thank you, John. Well, let me ask you about the master classes, because I understand you've conducted these classes over five continents. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

I finally I finally hit Africa last summer. So that was fun. So now I think what do I need now? Latin America. So um, you know, so still waiting for someone to bring me to Latin America. So, but I haven't been traveling to do those. The last couple years I've really cut down on those because I've been traveling so much for producing the two documentaries. Um and, you know, besides being a consultant and a strategist, I'm also a filmmaker. And, you know, when I had the opportunity to produce these, this first one documentary, and then we spun off another film from that one film, we spun off a separate film. Um and so now it's two documentaries that I'm producing. And since I traveled so much for that, I haven't been able to do as many workshops. But two years ago, we filmed one of my workshops, and so what I'm trying to do is um get someone to, and if any editors are out there content, I'm looking for someone to help put this together. And so if you have an interest in distribution and marketing and you also have some skills at editing, you know, I love the volunteer of your time. Um, and maybe we can work something out. So hopefully that will be out um this fall. And so what it will be it's essentially my seminars, you know, you can buy streaming, you know, different packages of the film streaming, and then some of it will be packaged with my consulting, and you know, and I also do these monthly um, I started doing these monthly join-it sessions um, you know, for my Kickstarter campaign, and I really enjoy those, and I'm starting so that will be part of the package as well as you know, being on, you know, being able to talk to me, you know, or having a group discussion once a month for an hour among the people who engage with the workshops that we that we that we sell online. So um, but so far the documentary the documentaries have been so all-encompassing that I haven't had a chance to focus on that. So I'm hoping to have a little time this summer to get those out, get those ready and get those out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Okay. Well, let me just ask you, you have um you have something called join us sessions.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Join us, and that was part of a part of my Kickstarter campaign from last year. Um and what that did was at a $35 level, um, people could come in and talk to me and you know, have a participate in a group discussion and kind of ask me any question they wanted to an hour every month. So um, and so that's you know, that's what that is. And I really enjoy those because you know, one of the things I really, really enjoy is talking to filmmakers about what's going on with their films, and you know, and um, you know, sometimes filmmakers just have a question or two, and this is a great opportunity to just answer those questions. And um, you know, and then I also consult, and then it's a more in-depth, you know, and we do more in-depth sessions. Um, you know, so I like to I want to kind of expand, you know, a little bit of what I offer to people. And um, so hopefully that will be happening in the next year. It's just hard to do, you know, it's hard to do so many different things. And um I also have two kids, and you know, so it's just uh sometimes it gets a little bit crazy, you know. And so sometimes I and so sometimes I drop off social media a little bit more than I would like to. I always like to keep a presence up then there, but you know, I'm hoping to, you know, be as I you know work towards releasing these seminars, hope to be out there a little bit more in the next few months. And we also just sponsor the face Facebook page for the breast cancer documentary as well. So if you kind of want to see what we're doing on in that, you can go, you can just Google, you can just in Facebook, you should be able to just put in in Facebook search breast cancer documentary. We just called it because the title might change, we just we just called it that for now to make it a little generic. Um and you know, so I welcome you to like it, come and like it and share it with your friends, and especially if you have an interest in the subject, or if you just have an interest in what we're gonna be doing over the next few months. Um and just to you know, in reference to what you were saying earlier about filmmakers marketing while they're in, you know, while they're in production, you know, what I did with the breast cancer film, because you know, there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of media and a lot of um um about breast cancer, obviously. And it's you know, a lot of people have a variety of opinions and um and you know our film might end up being a little controversial, so you know our our what our our goal was to work with the organizations first and you know spend our time doing that which I highly recommend and to really hold off on social media until you know kind of about an a a year before our release. And so since we're probably gonna we're hoping to be in the spring festival circuit, you know, we figured this was about a good time to start and you know build that audience slowly and towards the festival release and you know um and then you know have it we're either we're thinking of doing an international screening day either in the spring or possibly during breast cancer awareness month in October and um you know so that we would be building towards that.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Oh that's brilliant. Brilliant. Well um so let's start t tell us what your log line is and give us a short pitch about the film.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

So the the log line I actually have to call up but it's basically about the breast the about breast cancer and the meaning of the breast in the United States and it deals with the rise of mastectomies um which um has you know kind of been happening over the last couple years and there's been a lot of reports about over screening and over-treatment and we kind of we we deal with that a little bit but mostly what it's about what we do is we follow one breast surgeon um at a at a clinic in Baltimore is a woman who's been um a breast surgeon for the last 30 years and you know she's you know been around for quite some time she's seen quite a lot she lectures about it and she you know we kind of went through this period of where there used to be radical mastectomies you know in the 50s and 60s well up and through the 50s and 60s and into the 70s. And then there was a strong move towards lumpectomies doing as minimal as possible and now there's a swing back to doing you know double mastectomies even if they're not you know what the even if the doctor would say that this is ethically necessary. And so what we deal with is a lot of the the real lived experience of these four patients with this doctor and what they go through in their decision making process and and and post-treatment and how difficult that is and um you know how really breast you know like a reconstruction is quote unquote not boot job for instance and it's much more difficult and you know and I think a lot of people don't really know that and the goal with the film is the the main goal with the film is to provoke discussion you know and um amongst women uh not just women who have had breast cancer um or experience or someone who's experienced in their life but also people who haven't had it yet and um you know because a a lot of the the directors of feminist theorists from Hopkins and it's interesting how breast cancer brings up a lot of different issues in our culture um and um issues of femininity image image issues of body image etc and it's so it always makes me a little uncomfortable talking about this as a guy but um you know that's you know but what I think the film will that's why we want to do this International Screening Day is we want to get you know I would like at least a thousand screenings on that day and the whole goal of which is to have a screening and then have a discussion amongst the people who are at those screenings. So I want to do screenings from in people's living rooms all the way up to theaters and um and where there would be someone to help facilitate a discussion after each of the screenings on that on that day and to create a dialogue about this. And um so and I think we'll do well with that because we did some early we did some um we did a couple salon slash fundraisers in Baltimore where we showed showed even just 15 minutes of the film and showing just 15 minutes of the film elicited so much discussion amongst the women there. I was really I I just went oh my god yes this is actually going to work you know to show the film and to have people discuss the film I it was very heartening to see that and um and I do recommend that people you know this is just also something you know it was just we were doing the screening you know to create this discussion but I didn't really know how it was going to work and I really enjoy doing as many screenings as you know doing a lot of screenings before release as much as possible so that you can see the impact in the in how the audience is reacting to your film.

SPEAKER_04 26:36

Yes I'm working with several filmmakers now who are doing outreach and they are they have been raising money through grants John to help them with the outreach and the money is there for you I'm sure with this type of a film to take you across the country. Is that what you're thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah we're starting to work on those grants now you know and um we still need to raise money to finish the film um and so the director is always reminding me of that but you know I'm always you know in my book I say it's 50-50 you know and even if it's not 50-50 it's going to be 525 you need to start raising money for distribution and marketing and have that in that in your budget and you know we've had it in our budget and we just brought on someone else to help us with fundraising and you know and it's like yes we need this money to finish the film but we also need to raise this money as well you know um because I'm not you know um you know I need to I'm very well aware of that and so that's you know we're definitely working on that as as I speak.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

Right. Because it takes uh eight nine twelve months sometimes to enter the grant and and win.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah exactly exactly you need that lead time right yeah so but can you give us more details on how um the how you will have these home screenings will you offer DVDs to people if they will invite uh so many people to their home yeah exactly exactly and you know that takes a lot of you know one that's you know that process involves a lot of touch um as it were you have to like connect with those people you need that's when you need to start really bringing on more people to the team and have one person you know if you're successful you know and have a lot of people wanting screenings you need someone dedicated to organizing that and to make sure that they have the materials that they have they know what they you create a screening kit so that people know what they need to do to set up a screening and you have this yeah so anyone pretty much anyone who brings eight people you know into their home all the way up to theaters you know and we'll probably be using Pug or Gather or some you know system like that to if people want to um you know do a screening but don't have a don't have a venue and want to do it in a theater we'll be using those um those kind of online platforms one of those online platforms. And um you know and we'll also the idea is we'll probably do one or two you know targeted theatrical releases in that same weekend. So we'll do a one weekend kind of big screening you know the weekend will be a big screening event but the screening day will be the probably on that Sunday um and then we'll probably have a couple of you know screenings on that Friday as a in kind of like quote unquote premieres.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

So that's brilliant. That's a great launch plan. I know when Robert Redford uh he did this film about water and uh the demise of the water out here in the West and how precious it really is. So I they said if you will have ten people see this film we'll send you a screener. So I signed up they sent it to me and would you believe they called me about three weeks later and uh of course the first thing out of my mouth is only eight people have seen it so far but I am going to get the other two and she died laughing and said okay but Carol, tell us what you thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Give us some feedback and I could I was amazed that they really wanted to hear what people had to say about it I I want to have like when we do it I'm hoping I've already talked to IR at Emerging we did this with the Joffrey film where you know he you know we have these theaters that do it then you actually netcast the panel discussion into as many theaters as possible and I'm hoping to do that with as many homes as possible too but you know that's probably going to be a little difficult but frankly I'm more interested in those homes or smaller screenings having their own discussions and frankly still I'm gonna encourage I would like those people to film it and then send it to us and then we can edit some of those discussions you know what people feel comfortable with sending to us you know and even post some of those you know um and um so or at least be able to get the feedback you know um from these discussion groups and see like what the how the discussion you know went. And you know it'd be great to you know put something out you know that from those discussions and to be able to not just get feedback over the phone or via email but actually really see what happened.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Well John that is brilliant but people would love that because it's important to let everyone know that their voice matters.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah exactly exactly and um you know we're planning and it's still complicated and we're trying to raise money for it but we're working on creating uh an online storytelling platform and where women can upload their stories and women and men can upload their stories um about you know breast cancer uh either their personal experience with having it or their experience with their their family and loved ones that will be that will have video, audio and text and then also be searchable by type of person type of meaning whether it's a you know someone who had breast cancer or a family member and then what kind of what kind of cancer, what stage cancer, what type of treatment and different you know concerns that went into their thought process you know such as a they would be prompted with a question of you know tell us about your decisions about having a mastectomy and they would talk about that for and we'll probably have a time limit of say they would talk about that for a couple of minutes. So that women who are trying to decide and then there would also be what were your experiences with your you know if you chose a mastectomy what were your experiences afterwards. So if someone's trying to decide whether to do that or not they could actually see and hear stories from real women about what their experiences were. I think that is really important because everybody thinks it's an easy operation there's uh you heal quickly and it's not healing some people have complications right haven't you found that some people oh yeah definitely one of our characters has had many complications and um we followed her through her we've been following her through her whole course of treatment so that I think that'll be really interesting for people to see and um so and it's been very hard on her and you know our director's been great at creating this relationship um to you know be able to follow this woman through all of her treatment um and I I think it's something unlike whatever anyone's ever seen before you know because there's been a lot of breast cancer films but I feel that ours is unique on focusing on this one you know this one aspect of it.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

Oh I'm so glad you're doing that. It's really important for people to see something and listen to other people before they make a final decision. Well done John's well I um I'm read that Daily Variety listed you as one of the ten digital directors to watch.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

That's a great compliment that was a while ago when I made Better Living to Circuitry but I like to think that I you know still uh fulfilled that in a sense you know because I made Bomit and then Bomit too and you know and uh and you know and I think that my work with distribution marketing is kind of like an outgrowth of that. So and that's why I say you know it's like one of the things that I think I have as a little bit of a unique perspective to help other filmmakers is because you know I don't just talk about this stuff. Not that talking about it is that you know it's good, but you know it's like I I also do it, you know, and I do it you know for my own films and for other people's films, you know, but I also practice this in my filmmaking practice. And you know I think that's important. And sometimes you know and that's why it was great to work on these breast cancer the breast cancer documentary and the other documentary because it's great to sometimes get back because I've been doing a lot of consulting and and you know and releasing other you know releasing my film and releasing someone else's film and it was really great to get back to filmmaking too. And um you know and yeah it's just great to stay in it, you know. And um me these days probably if I was to you know the thing that you know I I encourage filmmakers to think about is episodic and um you know with the new model um you know which is about you know a lot of it is about engaging audience um I think that it you know it becomes increasingly difficult to create one film and then release it and then move on to another film that might be quite different. And then you have to almost start again um creating a new audience. I as much as possible encourage filmmakers not to do that and to you know to develop an audience and I usually think from one film and carry them to the next and I usually think that even though you might make one film about breast cancer the other film might be about something else that there's something that is within the the filmmaker that carries through from film to film. But still there are these large gaps between when the films are released. And I think that it's important for filmmakers to think about providing regular content. Now if they're a a feature film director and they only want to feature make feature films, I think that's one of the reasons to try to you know involve the filmmakers you know involve your audience as much as possible in the filmmaking process and you know let them know what you're doing etc and have them you know be a part of that process. But I also think that you know it makes sense you know that episodic content is another way to approach this where and this is why you know I think you see that HBO and now Netflix have moved away from one-off features and moved towards creating series because they realize that when you have a series audiences will come back to see the future episodes of those series and it's a way to keep audiences engaged with your platform and same thing for filmmakers. It's a way episodic is a way to keep a constant engagement with your audience. The problem though is it says it's very difficult to constantly create content and it's going to be you know we're in the baby steps of this now for independent filmmakers and how this can work for independent filmmakers and whether it's sustainable and how it can be sustainable. And it also depends on the current kinds of content that this appeals to I was at the YouTube Studios um recently with one of my cellar's classes and you know they they you know we asked because it was a the class is pretty much oriented towards dramatic, you know, independent narrative and you know they said that it hasn't really worked that well for that yet and that a lot of it is about is personal still personality based and you know comedy and genre based. And um you know but eventually I think it will shift you know and I think it's again we're still in the in the very early stages of of this.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

But tell us that you were at the YouTube studio doing what?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I didn't get the I was at the YouTube studio um this spring they do um you know if you they'll bring in they have groups of people that come in they have open houses um the YouTube studio is in uh Los Angeles and there's a couple around the world they have um studios in different cities around the world I think there's one in London there might be one in Paris um and what they what the studio does is if you are a partner that has I think 10,000 subscribers or more you can use the studio for free. But they also have classes on how to maximize the use of YouTube and your presence on YouTube. And so you know it's for certain filmmakers I think it's applicable for other film for many filmmakers or other filmmakers not so much. There's something I've recommended to people there is a YouTube handbook or at least there used to be I think they maybe took it down in lieu of people watching their web video instructional videos but YouTube has a lot of interesting information on how to engage audiences and you know through that through those handbooks that they have that I think is applicable for all filmmakers.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Well that's great. So you can download the YouTube handbook.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

You used to be able to they were saying I'd have to double check that um you know but you can go they certainly do have a a place on their site where you can you know they have how to sort of how to you know improve your viewership on YouTube.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

You know I think it is the most unused and the most wonderful asset we have as filmmakers to start your own YouTube campaign and um rather start your own uh show on YouTube and upload information about your film as you're making it and build your audience through YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Mm-hmm. Yeah one way to go right yeah definitely um the thing is is that it it really that is and I would you know because YouTube is the second most search uh uh search engine um I think it's second or third after Google. So people do go there to look for content so and to watch things. So it does make a lot of sense. It is you know in terms of making money from it you the metrics are you really have to have a quite a big viewership to make any money from it. It doesn't, you know, most people I think still experience um you know trickles of money but if you you know take off and you're rather successful people do make quite a lot of money on it.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

You know great. All right well I uh several things you said that sounded so good. So tell us with your film now let's go back to that you're are you working as the PMD on the film or what is your title on the budget?

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah well I'm the producer on the film and um I am also the de facto PMD. In fact I started as the PMD um kind of consulting on the film and then it seemed like they needed a producer and I wanted to you know get back into filmmaking and you know they had a budget to to hire me to pr to help produce it so you know I got them on board that way. And I also really thought the vision of the director was amazing and I like the project of course. And um you know and it's been a you know a great two year adventure so far. And um but yes I've been the PMD on the project and so I'm the one who's created the distribution strategy and the marketing strategy which became part of our business plan. I'm the one who's been just you know having all the discussions with the organizations um the potential organizational partners I've gone to conferences and met with people you know and bloggers and we started doing the blog app you know we've started doing blog um we've done our blog research we haven't started doing the blog outreach yet we're waiting on that a little bit longer um because as I said we're slowly building our social media presence and um so yeah I am the CMD on the project and you know it my goal is that we'll raise money for the distribution and marketing and then I'll be overseeing um the distribution and marketing of the film as well.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Okay. Well let me ask you what you just mentioned the business plan. Did you use that in for funding your film?

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah yeah and and let me tell you that being a PMD on a project and being the producer it's really hard and um you know and I wish and we have some people on board who are helping me with the the marketing but you know it's really it it's been really it it again showed me how important it is to to have someone else doing this to help. I think if it wasn't me doing it it would be very difficult for me to do it. And um but I also realized how difficult it is while you're making a film to devote the resources to this process. It's you know when you're struggling to make the film and ha raise enough money to to make the film you know and you need to spend money on an editor it's all it's hard to convince a director even for me to convince the director that we need to allocate these resources and we have you know but it is it's you know it's the it's the constant budgetary discussion. So and what was your question again? Sorry because I went off on my little tangent.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Oh all of this is really important. What would you say is what percentage are you putting into marketing from the incoming funds? Would you say it's twenty, thirty percent?

SPEAKER_01 43:46

No at this point no. I mean and and it's mainly because you know a lot of the work now is manpower and I'm doing that. And um you know we've gotten some people to come on board and work for not So much money, and um so and also my co-producer Becca Messner has been very helpful. Um, and we have someone in charge of our social media, Leah Robertson, you know, and she's you know, she's was a former student of the director and ended up doing social media for a long time at school, and and even though she doesn't really do social media in a regular job, she's really good at it. So she came on board to help us with social media. Um, and then I'm also um working with Amy Slotnik to help me with um further outreach. Because now that we've done the breast cancer, you know, we've you know we've done relatively, you know, we've made some inroads into the breast cancer organizations. The next phase that we have to do is women's organizations and women's health organizations. So Amy's been helping me with that. Um everyone's been really generous, you know, on with their time. And so I couldn't really, you know, the percentages wouldn't really reflect the amount of work that's gone involved. So I would say, you know, uh, even though, you know, at this point it's maybe 10%, not of budget, but of resources, but that will start shifting over time as we finish posts, you know, so that it then becomes 20, 30, 40, you know, and as we get into the festival circuit, then you're 100% marketing and you're finished with your film. But the the the reason it's kind of 50-50 and you need to think about it as 50-50 is because even though the percentage might be small while you're making your film, you still want to be doing it. And then the percentage of time devoted will shift as you're in post-production and approaching your you know, your your festival theatrical release and the rest of your release, so that it shifts from two years of production and post-production to like a year and a half of distribution and marketing, and so eventually it will become some level of 50-50.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

Of funds put into the film versus funds into marketing distribution, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Yeah, I I don't just use funds, but I also talk think about resources. So when I talk about 50-50, it's not just money, it's also, you know, it's also time. You know, so for a lot of filmmakers, it's sweat equity. They don't have the the money for this, um, so it's the amount of time that they have to put in. And um, you know, so but yeah, I mean I I would say that you know, probably in in all we'll end up 25% of our overall budget will be distribution and marketing. Um, it may end up going up more than 25%, maybe it'll be 35%. Um and um and so, you know, but in terms of the resources, it will end up probably being more close to 50-50 in terms of you know the time spent on it. And you know, the hardest thing I think in the new, you know, with this is that you know, I still see filmmakers, you know, struggling to make films and having the resources just to make a film, and you really have to slot away and really think about how you're going to engage with the distribution and marketing process, um, you know, because you are going to have to allocate resources to that. And I think that's also maybe one of the reasons it's hard to create kind of a sustainable PMD base is because a lot of filmmakers don't really have the resources to to pay there are people who are qualified to be, if not PMDs, at least, you know, associated or co-PMDs and handling the social media side or handling other sides, but the filmmakers don't really have the resources to pay them yet. Um and so what a lot of, and I think this is one of the questions that you wanted to talk about, is what I find is that um a lot of filmmakers working with up-and-coming, you know, kind of assistants and you know, people who are have a lot of you know good skills that can be converted into these into these skills, but then you need to spend a decent amount of time um, you know, fundraising, um not fundraising, but but supervising those people.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

That's right, John. And finding someone who really cares about the subject is uh imperative, don't you think?

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Um yeah, yeah. And that's you know this is what schoolmakers marketing.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

They say, I just don't have the time. I don't have the time. So I suggest that they go they look at people who are studying social networking in college, a lot of uh schools and colleges that are giving great classes, and what better than to graduate with a credit on a film uh as a social networker, right? On a film.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Exactly. Um yeah, I just got to text my son who just called me, so um just when I'm done. Um yeah, and I I do I don't recommend I don't think necessarily that filmmakers are the best for this. Um I think it's I think you're right that it's better to go to business schools or marketing departments and find who is kind of up and coming and that who has those skills for that. So um, you know, so that's um you know, that's what I recommend people do. And in and there are people out there. I mean, I I see filmmakers who find these people, they're a little bit harder to find than you may think. But um, you know, because it's certainly you're not it's not as sexy as filmmaking, you know, it's like they're not editing, they're not in on on a set in production. And um so um you know, so they're a little bit harder to find, but I think people have found them, and I think the best thing to advise people is to not look not to post on entertainment to careers.net, et cetera, where you might post for film crew, but to look around and post, you know, at at universities, local universities where, you know, recent graduates or people who are still in school who have these specific skill sets.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

Okay. All right, thank you. That's good advice. Now, just one last thing is I I am in agreement with you that uh whole world has come to the uh decision that they love to be able to sit down and watch a whole series at their own time and place. So one-offs are uh still a risk because you're gonna you're going to invest an hour and a half, two hours, and you don't know if you're gonna like that film, but you do know you would like this series, so you choose the series over the one-offs. So how do you um how do you recommend that filmmakers who have an important subject like your breast cancer, uh, your film would be exactly the right type of information that would lead to part two, part three, part four, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Right. Yes. So that's we're probably not gonna do a part two, part three, part four unless someone we do have this idea that we were gonna go to different countries in the world um and do like an international um extension of this. Um but we'll see if that gets funded based on the success of the first film. We we tried to fund it beforehand, but it didn't really, you know, it's like, okay, let's just fund the one film and not worry about the rest of the rest of the world. We actually went so far as we found a crew in India. We found a hospital and a crew in India to do it, but then you know, we didn't have the resources, even though it was relatively inexpensive. We didn't have the the time, the money to engage that. Um but um you know, but we still might do that after this. But so what our plan for that was is the is essentially the storytelling site that, you know, where this would we have a lot of extra content from the film, so one of the things that we're gonna be doing, you know, editing as we finish the editing of the film is editing um webisodes as well as even web series, because we have a couple of characters that we followed pretty, you know, pretty far that didn't that aren't ending up in the in the actual teacher film that um you know that we have quite a amount of information with them and and experience with them. So those will probably be web series that we'll release over time. And um, and then we also have these webisodes, and these will all be the idea was for these to be hubbed around the storytelling platform. And if the storytelling platform doesn't happen, then we still will have these this web content web material that we'll release strategically during the release of the feature film to continue the discussion and continue the process. But our whole goal with the storytelling site was to engage organizations to partner with us on them, and then that those organizations would actually take over the storytelling site when we move on to another film. Um, because I think it's important for the life of a project, and I think they're all very excited about that. Um because you know, otherwise you're, you know, unless you're a filmmaker, there are certain filmmakers who want to be engaged with one particular subject matter for quite some time, um, and there's a number of them out there. Um but most filmmakers will want to, you know, do different topics. And so if you've created discussion in an area, you want to be able to, you know, make sure that people can f follow through and you keep that community alive. Like one example is the Food Inc. people, my understanding, because I'm also working on a, you know, I've been consulting on a food project, you know, that those, and so I've looked into a little bit that the people who did Food Inc. have been have kept a very active list that that that group of people who initially were supportive of that film are still a pretty active community, and those filmmakers have done a number of things to keep that community active online. So um but getting back to your point about series versus one-off, yes, I do think that there is a potential for series. The the difference, the thing about one-off that's that is difficult for series to do is that they're good for creating events around. And so those events allow you to dent the media landscape, you know, in ways that studios can do or larger institutions or HBO Netflix, et cetera, can do through advertising. And so what independent filmmakers can help do is to coordinate publicity around events which are harder to do with shorter content. Um and so, you know, the the difficulty I think with series for independent series is how do you create an audience and how do you get that, how do you develop that audience over time. And so, but I think it is possible. Um it's going to be a longer, more organic approach. And it might be one in which people who create series also do events, you know, in combination, where maybe they don't show the feature, but maybe they show three episodes, you know, where you know they they have 40 minutes of content that they'll do at an event, and maybe they'll have bands or medians or something, whatever's pertain pertinent to the actual web series, um, and do those events to help raise the profile. And I think it's important for filmmakers to get away from the notion that things have to be 90 minutes. You know, I'm almost thinking like with the, you know, that you can do an event like if we had a 45-minute film about breast cancer for those discussion events, it might be even better because you're you're allowing more time for discussion. Or if you're having an event with a comedian or a band, you don't need to make people watch a 90-minute film. They can watch a half-hour film or a 40-minute film or 40 minutes of content and then watch, you know, watch something else. Like I think it's really interesting. Like some of the people who are doing interesting events are This American Life, who has kind of like almost like a vaudeville kind of variety aspect to it, and then also Hit Record, um, which is now a TV show, and um they've done live events where they combine, you know, film, poetry, music, etc., so that it and that helps make it more of an event instead of, oh, it's just another film screening.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

Exactly. Oh my gosh, you're just so full of brilliant. Thank you so much for the time is up, but we want you to tell us how people are.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

And then if anyone wants anyone can contact me, I do consult, and you can contact me through my website, which is johnweeks.com. I think that was your next question, Carol.

SPEAKER_04 56:43

And um and uh yeah, so and I yeah, so was there was there something else?com, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:57

And maybe you guys can put it um on your um on your website where the little article is for this, but um, you know, that they can link to my site from there. And that way they can also get a copy of the book for free. You know, they can get a few chapters of think outside the box office for free as well there if they want to check that out, haven't checked it out yet. Um etc. Great.

SPEAKER_04 57:21

Oh, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing all your brilliant ideas, Sean.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Okay, well it's always fun to be on your show and and uh thank you. I hope to be on there again when I have that web when I have the streaming seminar out and uh so that people can access, you know, can access that. Because I think we're gonna price it pretty we're gonna price it very competitively, let me put it that way.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

Well, that's exactly what we'd like to know about, and we will. We'd love to have you back then because I'll be one of the first people to take your seminar.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Okay, great. Great.

SPEAKER_04 57:56

Okay, take good care. Thank you for everything.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Okay, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_04 57:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

All right, John. Thanks. Thank you, Carol. Thank you, Toyota. Lots of love.

unknown 58:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra. David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story, please contact him at DavidRakeland.com. That's david R-A-I-K-L-E-N.com. And Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at FromTheHeartProductions.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

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