The Art of Film Funding
Discover the secrets to funding and creating successful indie films with The Art of Film Funding Podcast. Join Carole Dean, President of From the Heart Productions and author of The Art of Film Funding, and Heather Lenz, director of the award-winning documentary Kusama-Infinity, as they chat with top film industry pros. Get practical insider tips on crowdfunding, pitching, saving on budgets, marketing, hybrid distribution, and the latest in A.I. filmmaking. Whether you’re funding your first project or navigating new trends, this podcast has everything you need to succeed. Subscribe and let’s get your film funded!
The Art of Film Funding
HOW TO DEVELOP A FEATURE PROJECT FROM SCRATCH
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Love hope.
SPEAKER_03Hi, and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show. Actor, writer, and producer Tom Malloy, along with his company, Trick Candle Productions, are known for their quality, independent films that span a variety of genres. Trick Candle has most recently produced Screamer, a Docu Horror that's still in post-production, as well as Hero of the Underworld, starring Tom Malloy, Nicole Fox, and Quinton Aaron, and Fairhaven, starring Tom Wolpat and Michael Grant, as well as the teen drama Ashley, starring Nicole Fox, Michael Madison, and Jennifer Taylor, and directed by Dean Reynolds. The film was in theaters in 2013 and is now on VOD everywhere. And Carol, you and Tom teach the intentional filmmaking class together as well, right?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, we do. And Tom, thank you so much for joining us. I noticed that um we we both met uh Kirsten in the intentional filmmaking class. And so tell me about her film, because you were the producer and a and an actor in the show, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I had a s a small um part in the uh in the film itself, but as far as you know, that film, uh I was yeah, I was the kind of sole producer and uh I I came in after she took the class, basically while she was taking the class, she had had uh an idea for a film that she wanted to do, but it was much bigger budget, and it was going to be her first time film. And I think in one of the classes we had discussed with her, or maybe it was at the private um discussion that you and I had with her, that maybe she shouldn't, you know, do this gigantic uh film and it for her first film, and maybe she should try something a little bit smaller. And so she came up with a great idea for s something smaller, and the timing and everything worked out, and she w you know I produced the film and she directed it, and now it's you know, I g I actually uh got a um distributor involved, so we have a distribution deal and we're we're going all over as far as foreign sales and we're hitting all these film festivals, and so things are going fantastic with the film.
SPEAKER_04So oh, that's brilliant. Well, she was very talented, and you're absolutely right. To go out and and look for the amount of money that her first script was would be so would be hard. And um then she could get depressed and unhappy, and uh so this is the best way to do it. I really think pick a a budget that you can you know you can raise the money, because when she said when I talked to her, I know at one time about the budget, I said, Can you raise that much money? She said yes, with great confidence. So I knew she could do it because she knew she could do it, which is part of the case. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02That's great. You know, and we talked about that in the class, is that you kind of have to believe that you can do it. You gotta believe in your number, you know what I mean? And um and I think then she finally did. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04It was so much fun in that class because we take uh people uh some that are just starting out, some that already have a business plan, but there is so much to learn. So uh I I I think the best part is how to develop a project from scratch. So let's get into that. Um and the question is where do you start?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, well you you know, th as far as starting something from scratch, it's it's so funny that you you know, it's perfect timing for this interview because I just recently st started a project from scratch about uh I would say uh last Thursday. No, wait, uh yeah, maybe the Thursday before then. Um yeah, two Thursdays ago, I I say I just kind of, you know, got this feeling and said I wanted to d to do another film just purely from scratch, which was kind of unique for me because for so long I've been doing things that are, you know, commission jobs or hiring, you know, people have hired me to be a producer or hired me as an actor and um you know just do doing a lot of that for a while now. So it's been uh some years before I started a a screenplay from scratch. But the key, I think, what you know, which is exciting about anything when when you're starting something is you you really that's really the time where you have to feel the energy of the universe. And you know, you talk about that a lot, and we talk about that and we agree on so many of those things, is that you know, you have to when you feel something, you get that idea that rushes to you and you go, ooh, what if it you know it'd be nice to make a movie this way or something like that? You have to go with that. You really have to just take that feeling and start to run with it. And uh that's really uh uh uh the kind of if you want to talk about the ground, like the first thing to do is just to feel the energy. You start uh everything starts with an idea. Everything, you know, this chair that I'm sitting in, this office, this house, everything starts with an idea uh in your head, and so you really have to start with an an idea, a concept. Get that excitement, get that energy going, then you can move on to the nuts and bolts things, which you know, obviously we'll talk about, but I'm saying the first thing that you have to do is feel the energy and start to follow it.
SPEAKER_04And you uh uh uh and it has to be something that's really compelling to you, right? Because you're gonna be in it for some time.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, exactly. You know, if you go, you know, yeah, that that's a great point. I mean, if you if you have something where it's like, oh, that'd be fun to make a little, you know, kind of film like that, that's not where you you don't want to follow that. It's where you this wakes you up in the middle of the night or you just you know feel like, wow, this would be great, and uh, you know, no matter who you can talk to about it or who's gonna, you know, initially give you a uh uh you know st some kind of feedback on it, that's not gonna influence you at all. You're you're just gonna go for it no matter what. If somebody says, uh, I don't know about that idea, you don't care. You know that it's a winner. So if you have that energy inside you that then that's the one to go with.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. So once you've got it the in your mind and to bring it into this third dimension, you what is it, words? Do you start with something written and then something verbal?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Immediately pull out a notebook and start to to take some notes on things. Um, you know, it's so if you say you have a a concept for a um documentary, which funny enough came to me the other day and that's something I I may pursue, and it's it's a very specific documentary. But um, you know, so say you have a concept for documentary or s an idea for screenplay, the first things you gotta do is just start to get stuff on paper and just start to look at it and start to kind of r you know, the the old cliche term of wrapping your head around it is really a thing. You know, you start to go, okay, let let me put my thoughts down on paper. So now you've kind of taken it out of just a thought and you've made it into a physical form, which is always great. And then just start, you know, that's when then you start really diving in. You just, okay, could this be something I could do? Is this something that, you know, I can see myself doing? A lot of visualization and stuff like that. And then that's when you jump into kind of the next steps, the nuts and bolts.
SPEAKER_04Okay, and so the next steps uh you would start um developing it, uh, developing your idea. That's where everybody seems to uh fall apart.
SPEAKER_05I get a lot of that are undeveloped.
SPEAKER_04So tell me, what does that mean to develop a script?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. The development stages where a lot of people will that that's the that's all they'll get and that's it. You know, I I, you know, when I get an idea and and something feels right, I push and I push and I push and I, you know, I I've gotten better and better at identifying that energy. Um and also more and more experienced, so I have the resources to do something with that that energy. Um I tell the story of it was October 2014, and I was on a haunted hayride with my daughter, and I j you know just kind of felt this swirl of energy of watching the people react to the the scares and everything, and I posted on Facebook, I just decided right now I want to make another horror movie. And I didn't even have anything on my radar. In fact, I had a couple other films on my radar that I was kind of playing with and whatever, and that was October 4th or whatever it was. By a month later, uh I had the financing committed, and then we were shooting by February, and that that was that movie Screamers that we did last year, and uh so it was like that I felt something and I I took action. Uh to follow up on that with this other film um that I just you know had this idea the other, you know, two two weeks ago or so. If you can believe that I already have a rough draft of the script. Now, that's not everybody's gonna be that fast, but uh I am. I mean I can't I can't sleep unless I do something with it. And that was uh I wrote Friday, Saturday, and Sunday of last week, and then Friday and Saturday um of this past weekend, and on Saturday I had had a rough draft of the script, so now I'm already going back and doing the rewrite on it and uh and starting to put it on paper. So I mean I've really already taken the in two weeks taken steps to have something, you know, legitimate in front of me that I can start to to push out there.
SPEAKER_04Well well, do you know what the budget are you writing for the budget or are you are you just writing and then you'll figure out the budget later?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, you sometimes you do sometimes you do that. Sometimes like I I can't help it as a producer to wrong with the budget in mind. You uh you know, it it's n sometimes it's it's a it's not the best thing in the world to do, but you know, I mean look, I I try to be at least somewhat r you know reasonable about it, um, meaning I'm not gonna say, you know, interior uh, you know, Golden State Warriors Stadium, you know, the Cleveland Cavaliers fans, you know, all stand up at, you know, and r run out the door, you know, so suddenly that's you know, that I I I've now put this in the realm of this is gonna have to be a big budget thing. And so I'm I'm not, you know, so on those big kind of sweeping budget things, I'm not putting them in there, but I'm not necessarily writing for a budget in mind and saying, ooh, I can consolidate into one location. I'm just kind of thinking of the story early on. Same with the documentary. If you have a documentary, you don't gotta, you know, think initially, oh, you know, well, I don't know, these guys live in in California and these other guys live in Chicago. How am I gonna get all these people on the interview? Don't think of that. Just either get the get the idea and the concept on paper first, and then a little bit later on, which is you know a little bit uh a couple steps down the road, that's when you'll think of the actual budget, and that's when you'll actually start to to understand how you can do it. You know, again, wrapping your head around it, but now wrapping your head around it financially.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, okay, so you have a a script, an outline for a script, but now you're rewriting it. So that you would keep rewriting until you feel you have um a dynamite script. I've heard you say, never go with the good script. You have to it has to be dynamite, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, yeah, and you know, j me just so you know, that it's you know, I don't even have an outline. I have an actual, I think it was 85 pages screenplay written. You know, I and that's what I did in about five or six days of writing, yes. But what my dr you know, and and this is goes to what writing is, and now I've written over twenty screenplays, I'm in the guild, I've made, you know, tons of money writing screenplays, so I have it kind of down to a science, but my first draft, and this is a mistake that a lot of people make, and I just throw this out there. My first draft consists of three things. The first is the kind of you know, get it out draft, it's you know, or the crap draft is almost a good name for it, because I will write through to the end. I don't care if I'm creating characters along the way and oh wait, I forgot to introduce them in the first. I don't care. I will just introduce uh a character will just start speaking in the script that I haven't even put in yet. But I do that to drive it all the way to the end so that I can get to that last page, and then you go back and you rewrite the full script. Then you go back a third time and you polish that rewrite, and that is what constitutes what I call a first draft. The mistake that most people make is that that crap draft, they get it out, they get so excited, ooh, I wrote a screenplay, and then they start showing people that draft, and it's like, oh my god, this is so bad, you know, and that's why, you know, 99% of screenplays out there are really bad because they're they're not going back and realizing, okay, every screenplay has to have major rewrites for structure and everything and character, and then polish all that stuff and re-look at the dialogue and all that. So again, that that 85, 86 pages that I put out, it's gonna be what the end of the day, it's gonna be about towards the high 90s in pages when I finish the rewrite, and then when I go to the polish, you know, and then I'll I'll fix everything up. But um, you know, it it's uh that it's it's equating to a sculptor, this crap draft almost, or this, you know, they've also called it the rock draft. This is if you're gonna sculpt something, you have to have that rock first that you've got to chisel away at. So you have to create the rock. If you don't create the rock, you can never do it. You can't just go, I'm gonna start on a hand, ooh, wait a minute, I don't like the way this fingernail came out, let me just redo that. And that's what a lot of people do. They'll write five pages and they go, oh, you know what, let me go back, I'm gonna just polish these five pages, and they'll never get their screenplay finished. Or if they, you know, somehow pull it off, they'll take three years to do it, you know, versus kind of forging to the end, which is my philosophy.
SPEAKER_04Well, if once you've got the idea, you use that same energy to get it on paper, and I bet when you open the spigot, the ideas keep coming and coming, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, definitely. You know, and then that's there's a there's a really interesting thing you gotta kind of just be careful of at that point because y you almost uh this is just a kind of a n a grand note to everybody, is don't tell too many people about it. You know, it's like until you you you kind of gotta keep it inside. Like notice that I haven't told the genre or what it's about or anything like that on this call, because you gotta kind of keep it to yourself a little bit and enjoy that energy for yourself, you know, because i i people are also sometimes naysayers and and uh though I personally don't try I try not to be affected by that, it still, you know, uh could throw out your game off a little bit. So I don't tell anybody what it's um I'm writing a new script. Maybe, maybe I'll tell them the genre, but I don't go to details about what specifically it is, just in case somebody's gonna be like, oh, you know, there's another movie like that or whatever. I'll wait to, you know, if if down the line somebody's gonna say that to me, okay, I'll deal with that when I have to deal with it. But it a lot of times it's great just to, you know, to to live with your idea as you're fleshing it out. Live with it for a little bit on your own. Um, you know, maybe ask little questions. Uh say you're making a, you know, let's just say horror movie, you know, you ask a little bit, hey, was there ever a horror movie made about, I don't know, clowns or something like that? And then you say that to somebody and and just throw that out there. So what I what I'm saying is don't give the whole farm away right away. Sometimes it's nice to just live with the energy a little bit b as you're developing it. Then eventually now you're gonna you're gonna broadcast it to the world and everything, and and and we've talked so much about the importance of putting it out there and letting people know about it, but early on, just when you're kind of in the development stages, it's best to just, you know, kind of live with it, I'd say.
SPEAKER_04That's brilliant. Yes. I I think you keep the energy to yourself and it just magnifies. And then you take it out to the world when you're ready for all the comments.
SPEAKER_05Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_04Well, let's talk about the docs developing a documentary. I mean, this is another area I find lacking. People have good ideas, but there's not enough meat in them. Who who are you going to interview? Well, how are you gonna show me this? They write about the history often and the need, but they don't get me a visual.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a big thing too, is that you know, they the again that's that's kind of the the r the wrapping their head around it and and thinking how logistically it could be done. All right, so you so you mean you have this idea for a documentary that's uh you know, a documentary on uh you know, this uh on a city, on a it's let's just say it's in the city of Rochester, you know, I have family there and everything. Let's say you want to do a documentary on the city of Rochester. And so now that's exciting for you, and you think about it, and you're you're you got that bolt of excitement and you you're you're kind of p you throwing it around in your head and uh reflecting on it and getting more ideas and everything, but then it always comes time to get to that next step and go, okay, how would I do this? How what what would this documentary consist of? Would it consist of sit-down interviews? Would it consist of B-roll footage, archive footage, you know, and you could start doing some research and asking questions and starting to put the pieces together to make it seem real. I mean, there's definitely that transformation that you have to make from just an idea to it's gonna happen, you know, and and luckily and thankfully, and I've been this way for a long time, and I think uh reading self-help books and things like that have uh, you know, maybe magnified this in me. But I'm I'm very good at, you know, when somebody throws out an idea going, okay, this is how we could do this, you know what I mean? Like I can I know, and I have a kind of an intrinsic way to then translate it into action points, you know, oh well, you'd have to do this, that, and the other thing. And I I have friends that'll just tell me their ideas because they know I'll come back with, you know, you should do this, that, and the other, ABC, you know. And that's a thing. That's a thing with a documentary. So you're gonna make a documentary about Rochester, New York, okay, great. What are you gonna do? What is it gonna consist of? All right, find a documentary about another city, watch that, do research. You can bet, when I was just telling about this script before, that I've already watched movies that I felt were in a similar genre just to see how they were constructed. This is all research, you know. So this is all taking things that were conceptual and now putting it into action. And that's what needs to be.
SPEAKER_04So it sounds like you just you just put canceled everything for the weekend and said I put everything on hold and you went with the idea. And that's it.
SPEAKER_02Two weeks in a row I did it, yes. And as many as it would take, you know, I would do it, you know, and and if it took if it took six weekends, you know, I would do it and I would find time to do it. But, you know, you have to uh it's a strike while the iron's hot thing, uh almost in a way of of energy-wise, you know, you don't want that energy to dissipate where you oh I'll get to it one day. You know, I've I've always said that, uh, even when I used to speak to kids, that one day is a is a very uh obscure thing and it's not a good thing to say, and it's something that I personally dislike when people say one day, because one day never comes. You know, uh one day is is there's no there's nothing to it. Oh, I'm gonna do I'm gonna lose weight one day. It's like, well, no, you're not, because you didn't actually put a finite thing on it. You're you're gonna lose weight by the end of this month. Okay, now this has got a date and a, you know, and and how much weight? I'm gonna use lose ten pounds by the end of this month. Okay, good. Now we're starting to actually have a goal that's attainable. Uh so one day doesn't, you know, doesn't mean anything to me. To me, it's like, okay, are we gonna do this now or what? You know, and if I say I had something else going on, okay, well then I have something else. I have a I'm shooting a pilot all all this month, great. Okay, by July then, that's when I'm gonna start. And I'd put that on the calendar, I'd set an iPhone reminder. So it's not like, you know, somebody listening is saying, Well, I have the you know, I'm going away next week. Well, great, okay, how about the week after? You know, put it on paper and do it and actually take the action. That's so big.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it is. It's great. Well, um let's talk about uh seeking attachments because you need those for docs or uh films.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, that's also part of the process of you know, making now it's real. Now you got a script, and now you have a uh, you know, a div in the documentary, you have a concept, you have the idea. So now it's like you've also then started to look at it from a budgetary perspective, and you started to look at it from, you know, kind of the logistics of how it's gonna get done. How you're gonna make this documentary, how you're gonna make this um, you know, this feature film and all that stuff. So, okay, now y you want to try to get attachments um, you know, as far as a film, it's different from a film and documentary in a little bit, because in documentary you want subjects and people that you can interview and things like that. And in film you want, you know, a director, potentially if you're not a director, or some stars or distributors and things like that. And that's all part of you know putting the project together so that now you have, you know, look, attachments, all I could say is attachments make it more real. Uh whether it's uh a you know, a director, whether it's a cameraman, whether it's, you know, somebody that signs a piece of paper saying they'll do it, whether it's even a verbal commitment saying, sure, you know, I'd love to take a look at it. Um, you know, I've done this before, and I won't disclose if I if I've done it on this project, which means I just I did do it on this project, but uh I've actually created a a kind of a deadline on myself, and this is this is a great tip for people out there. If you feel like you can't get something done, go create a deadline. I remember when I did the film The Alphabet Killer, I was only about f maybe 30, 40% into it. I couldn't finish. It was I was stuck at the writer's block. So what I did is I went out to a a big producer that I knew, one of my kind of gold contacts at the time, and said, Would you like to read a draft of this this new uh scary movie that I have? I think it's fantastic. Told her a little bit about it. And she said, Sure, I'd love to. And that was like on a Thursday. I said, Great, I'll get it to you Monday. And I did that purposely so that I would f finalize the script. So that Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I wrote like mad to get her that rough draft on Monday, and which I mean the the first draft on Monday, which I did, and I had it to her on on the Monday. So um, like I said, I might may or may not have done that with this film just to kind of see if I could push myself. But yeah, I mean always, you know, it attachments are are are the thing that makes it real.
SPEAKER_04I love that Alphabet Killer film. I think I can't imagine that you finished uh one third of it over a weekend. That's incredible. Because that's a great script.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, thank you, yes. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so you want to attach directors, distributors, stars or subjects for the doc and um and also with the doc I think it's getting uh closer to the heart of the film because sometimes that's what I find when they submit for our film grant is they have gr a great idea, but th it's too nebulous. They they have not found the core issue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, and and and just you know, and with the documentary you have a little bit of a freedom, especially if you're gonna have a kind of um you know, a well look, if you're if there's certain types of documentaries, the kind of the talking head documentaries, and there's the follow somebody's around documentary. Um with both of those, especially with today's technology, you have the freedom to just start shooting something, you know, and and just kind of maybe shoot a sit-down interview. No, okay, if you if you're gonna redo that, you know, with a better camera or something like that, or you're gonna follow somebody, it's okay, you could do that down the road, but you you never know what you're gonna get. You know, sometimes I I tell people with documentaries, just sit somebody down and interview them and just see where that leads. And you know, and that may be that just doing that may be able to kind of solidify the documentary in your head, okay, this is the this is the angle that we're gonna take. Because you know as well as I do, documentaries have to take an angle, they have to take a perspective. Um, you know, they have to come at a story from a certain angle, or you know, they can't just be this big amalg amalgamation of information. You know what I mean? It has to have a perspective. And so, you know, you gotta you gotta kinda narrow it down to that.
SPEAKER_04So Okay, so then then you start to put a budget together, is that right? Or an idea for the budget?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well then again, now you okay, so now you look and you go, this is the kind of level of stars I want to attach, this is the kind of level of people I want to attach, is the kind of director, and now you you know, you look at back at your script, you look back at your documentary, and you say, Okay, what what can I do this for? How can I do it? What you know, so many questions factor into that budget. You know, what kind of cameras do I want to shoot on? What kind of you know, crew do I want to have? And so it's really again looking at it, so what is the budget and and also what we said before, so what is the budget that you can kind of handle, and then what is the budget you can raise? Because you you really have to believe in your budget number that you you can do a film for X and and believe in it and have it make sense to you, you know. It and uh we run into this a lot uh with people in the class that they kind of come in and maybe they don't intrinsically believe in their budget. If they're a first-time filmmaker and they want to do a three million dollar, you know, feature, and it's like, okay, they've never directed a feature before. I'm just gonna say I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that it's very tough. It's very tough to to come at that from the you know your first film. So maybe they start to hear stuff like that and it gets in their head and they're gonna kind of manifest that they're not gonna get their their money and they're not gonna get their movie made. Um but at the end of the day, to me, it's always about the movie getting made. So it's like, you know, be ready to do what Kirsten did and and take a find a different project that's a smaller budget and make the movie, you know. And uh so the bottom line is the m number, that number of the um uh budget has to be uh, you know, that that that has to be something that you can believe in and then you you think is right for the film.
SPEAKER_04And you know you can get you you're comfortable with that number. So the it's what you've got what you're saying is you go where the energy is and you have to be flexible.
SPEAKER_02Yes, the flexibility is is a big thing. You know, it's it's you you you have to be you you can't be too much look it, it it it's a fine line because there needs to be focus, but there also needs to be flexibility. So there is the focus is I'm gonna make this movie. Like, for example, this movie that I'm writing right now. I really want to make this movie, I'm going to make this movie eventually. Uh, you know, but the bottom line is it say I'm just gonna try to throw obstacles at me. Say, you know, it's uh I I want to go for a certain budget, but this certain actress isn't available or something like that. And so I decide to make it with uh, you know, somebody that's not as an A-list and maybe they're a C list or whatever. You know, those kind of flexibility issues, it's it's okay. It's okay to, you know, meaning the opposite of that would be rigidity, which I would say, no, I have to make it for this amount. It's gotta be at least a$10 million movie, it's gotta have this actress in it, and that's it, and that's all I, you know. And I've seen that. I've seen projects headed for a disaster. Um, you know, especially I've seen people write films or create documentaries with a certain person in mind, and there's no flexibility there. And it's like, that's tough, man. You know, it's for a documentary to say, oh no, we we we're getting Morgan Freeman to narrate this, and that's that's all I will accept, and that's it. And and it's nice you know, to see his focus sometimes, and and you know, God bless them if they get to get Morgan Freeman to narrate their their documentary, but you know, be flexible at the end of the day just enough so that you can get it made, because there's a ton of narrators that, you know, maybe he's the best there is, but there's a ton that are just as good. There's Alec Baldwin, you know, there's some there's Ron Howard, there's guys that narrate stuff that that to me are just as good. So same with actors, same with actor attachments. If, you know, you you you're writing a script and it's gotta be for, I don't know, Hugh Grant, you know, and that's all you'll accept. No, no, it's the perfect, perfect movie for Hugh Grant. Well, then you're not you're you're not flexible at all, and sometimes too rigid, you're not giving yourself enough of a window. You know, it's it's there's a target you're trying to hit, and you do not need to hit it, you know, you almost think of it as a dartboard. You know, you need to hit it on the dartboard somewhere. You don't need to get the bullseye every time. So you've got to be flexible enough to say, you know, I'm gonna throw this dart, but I'm gonna be happy if it hits the dartboard, and you know, and not just stand there throwing darts and saying the only time I'm gonna be happy is if this hits the bullseye, and that's it. Other than that, I it's not counting. Well, that's you you know, you could get in trouble that way.
SPEAKER_04Oh, you could. You've got to be very flexible. I've seen it where people well, once you've written your script, for example, and you really love it, when you bring on a director, you know they're going to have ideas and want to change things.
SPEAKER_02God, yes. Oh my god, yes. You know, it's like writing is rewriting, and if you can't get understand that, you know, there's you you're in trouble. It it there's a famous cartoon that's uh you know that says what you write, and it I I I don't know if you've seen it, and it has a it's three drawings and it says what you write, and it has this bunch of stack of papers for screenplay, and then it says what um your agent buys, and then it's got a you know, a micro stack of papers, and then it says what makes it to the screen, and it's got like one or two pages. You know, and it and it's very funny because that that is what writing is, is that it is rewriting and and rewriting and rewriting, and then the director comes on and they want to change something, and then the actor comes on and they want to change something, and you have to be, you know, you you you can't just be like, yeah, I'll do anything, you know, and I'll change it. Yeah, whatever you need to do to make it. But so you you kind of there's again a fine line, you've got to stick to your guns a little bit, but at the same time, you have to understand that you they're uh look at it, and I always say it, if somebody gives me a suggestion and I think it's wrong, I'm gonna fight them to the death for it. But I'm flexible enough and I understand when when a suggestion comes in, I go, all right, that actually is a good idea. I'll always do it. I'll uh you know, I'm it to me it's never a matter of what what it is for a lot of people, which is they don't want to do the work. They go, Oh, well, I I wrote this script, I'm done, you know, I'm I'm moved on. And it's like to me, it's like no way. Until that makes it up on the on the uh screen, uh, then you're still you're still rewriting. It's all open season.
SPEAKER_04You're still rewriting to the last day.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yep.
SPEAKER_04It's amazing. Well, so once this is a viable project, then how do you take it to the next stage of trying to get it funded?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, now it's like, you know, uh uh uh that I I would just say that there's a lot of aspects in that. You know, we talk about that in the class with prepping the project, and um uh there's so there's a lot there's a lot that goes into that as far as the prep goes, the getting into a viable project. And so it's almost too much to go into as far as the steps that you have to take. But the the bottom line is yes, you have to take all these steps to now get it in investment property and and things like that, and you have attachments, you have the budgets, you have the script, you have the idea, whatever it is, everything into one package. So now you've taken an idea in your head and you've moved it into something that's reality. Um and you have to, you know, you God, that's it again, you now have to live in it again. You know, you've moved it to um a project that now you're trying to raise money for, and that needs to be your universe, you know. It always be have it in your head and you know, it and it'll feel good. I mean, your feelings in your body are a great scale, a great uh notifier of what's what's the things you should follow you know you should follow. If you if you always feel like you're getting a um you know, uh a bad feeling or I don't know if it's gonna work out, that's not a good thing. But if you always feel like this this you know, happiness and this feels exciting and things like that, now keep following it and keep living with it. And you know, then that's when you start to push to the next stage and you know, start to make it all those things that we talk about in our class with the putting the investment together and and getting, you know, everything prepped and getting all your attachments and your budget and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, this is your now y the Chopra has been telling us for years how important it is to listen to your body. Um for example, I remember on one of his uh sh videos he said, if you want another cup of coffee, go stand by the coffee pot and see how you feel. And if your stomach gets sour, walk away. You've had enough.
SPEAKER_05But it's great.
SPEAKER_04And now now they are saying that some that the stomach becomes a secondary brain. Sometimes when the brain is overloaded, it sends uh signals to the stomach for questions and answers. And the stomach is a better guide because it has no failure history.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, oh that's great. I love that. Yeah, and the stomach, you know, they identify that nerve groupings in there, so almost like your stomach has a second brain in there, and that's that's great.
SPEAKER_04It is.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, you feel it in the gut. There it is. Yeah, what's your gut telling you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so what the next stage would be what?
SPEAKER_02Well, the next stage after that, um, uh, you know, is again to keep, you know, keep on it, be focused, but also be open. You know, there there's an interesting thing you should watch out for too, which is to watch out for the other idea. And I I've seen this, you know, this happens a lot in screenplays, and also happens a lot in documentary ideas. The other brilliant idea that comes in right, you know, halfway through your screenplay or halfway through developing your documentary idea. Ooh, I should make this, you know, like and uh and that what happens is that people get an idea and they follow up on it, you know. I mean, I've seen it happen where somebody's, you know, a third of the way or halfway through a screenplay, they get an idea for a better screenplay, and they abandon that screenplay and they go on to something else, which is just gonna cause a chain of events because the next screenplay, they're also gonna get another idea and they're gonna abandon that, and they're gonna and it's just gonna keep happening. And then, you know, same with the documentary. So you have to stick to your guns, but you also, you know, they're again fine line, you have to know if something's just not, you know, not right. I did mention real quickly I had a documentary idea the other day. Now, you know, just so you know, like as I'm saying on this call, I'm working on this this feature film that I it's a brand new idea for me, um, and that's what I'm pushing. So with this one, I thought, okay, as soon as I'm done kind of developing this project, this is something that I would just like to see if, you know, how test the waters and see how this works. But at the same time, the energy came to me and I thought, let me just make one phone call about this. Actually, I'm sorry, I sent a text and I also made a phone call about it and just said, hey, what about this for a documentary? And so I talked to this person about it. And now right away, he said, Oh, wow, that's a great idea. And uh, and and you know, kind of supported it. Then hung up, he called me right back afterwards. He said, Ooh, wait, what about a documentary about this guy? And talked about another guy. Now, I it would have been, you know, simple for me to go, oh, yeah, yeah, again, let's do it about him, and just completely change the idea, but then I wouldn't be sticking to my intuition there, you know, and I wouldn't be sticking with the initial energy for me to just jump ship that quick and change the idea, no good, you know. Um, again, the caveat here is the rigidity, you know, if if if you can't see, you know, that that something isn't working or everybody says it's a bad idea, you know, maybe then you should start to be open and a little bit flexible. But um i gosh, it's all of it's it's such a fine line to try to stay right in the center and and be centered. I guess that's where that comes, you know, coming from is uh be centered about your idea.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Right. And go with it. Because you know you really have to like the person that you're filming. You're gonna be there for three years, two years.
SPEAKER_02Yes, oh god, you know, it's like the uh the documentaries that I've made in the past, um, you know, th these people became friends of mine that I still talk to in in certain cases, you know, and it's like so they're with you, you know, that now they're part of your life.
SPEAKER_04Right. Well, when you go out and you start looking for money, I love the fact that you say uh go until no. So and I I think that you uh should explain that to everyone because it is so important.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, you know, it's it's really just a case of uh i if somebody's gonna tell if say, look at I I'll I'll reach out to somebody and look for investments or look for support and things like that. It it's a rare scenario, uh and I would say, you know, it happens, but it just doesn't happen as much where somebody says, no, I'm not interested. It's actually rare. That's rare. Uh somebody will tell you um and I will say something that's never happened, knock on wood, is somebody says, not only am I not interested, I'm never going to be interested. Which is I has not happened to me yet. Maybe it's gonna happen to me one day, but if they say they're not interested at the time, okay, fine. Then they're not the right person for this project, and I'll go I'll still have them on my list as somebody to go to down the road. You know, um, I've met some of my best investors that way by the first meeting ever. They said, Well, right now there's not a great time for me, but that's okay. I will continue to follow up with that person until it is the right time for that person, and sometimes the best investors I ever had um or ever got came that way. But the go until no thing is is just, you know, if look, uh you you can get a yes, which is the greatest thing in the world. Uh now, if you get a maybe, well, a maybe is, you know, that's the one that you that most people give up on, you know, or they not a maybe or a kind of a postponing of the no. That's where most people give up. And studies have shown that people that are salesmen that they call on the first or second call, there's this, you know, there's a certain amount of sales that they're gonna get, and then that starts to drop off on the third and fourth and fifth call. Okay, but here's the thing. Now you starts to go back up again on the sixth, the seventh, and the eighth call. Like now it star it kind of dips, but then it comes back because the b the fact is most people have given up by then and they're you know they're not pursuing it, and sometimes you have to stay on people because the timing has to be right and the you know the situation has to be right, and you know, so I I never give up and I go until no, which means until somebody says they're not interested. And um, okay, that's great. Then they're they're on to the another list, and I'm on to the other people that I'm pursuing.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful. And and you find these people by going out and by being in places where uh entrepreneurs are are you always saying get out of Hollywood, don't look for money there. Look somewhere else, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I mean that's that's a big mistake that a lot of people make. They, you know, it's say you say this, you know, you're at a barbecue and you say to your uncle, uh, yeah, I'm looking to get financing for films, he would say, you know, one thing that anybody would say was, oh yeah, you know, I have a cousin that uh he works for uh Universal. Let me let me introduce you to that person. It's like I could tell you right now that cousin, not knowing any of these situations, that cousin for Universal is not going to do anything for your project, especially they're not gonna give you money. It's like because somebody in the business is already in the business, and this is how I, you know, feed my kids and how I pay uh for my rent and and everything. Everything that's in my life, my car, everything, is is the movie business. So, you know, for you to come to me and say, can you finance my film, which I get all the time, by the way, it's like, well, what about, you know, what is what is that doing for me and my projects and my business, you know, and and so I I understand that people in the movie business are kind of selfish in a way because it's it that's that's their business. That's what they have to be. You know, I uh I always equate it to asking a doctor, oh, you're a doctor, hey, maybe can I perform the next open heart surgery? Would you would you let me do that? Just, you know, put your career and everything on the line and gamble on me to perform that open heart surgery. Uh no one would ever ask that question, but it happens all the time in the film business. I mean, like, I don't know why they don't take it as seriously, but um, you know, it's the same amount of training and experience goes into an a you know a qualified filmmaker that it does to a doctor, you know what I mean, especially when they've been doing it for years and years and they're a veteran. So anyway, what getting off the topic, I I basically was, you know, to kind of circling it back around, um, you need to uh well I lost my train of thought there when I when I went off with the doctor. What was the the initial question, Carol?
SPEAKER_04W go until no is what we were talking about. How you talk to people until they finally say no, and then you go to the next one, but you never give up.
SPEAKER_02No, no. I'm sorry, no, no, no. It wasn't, it was about staying out of Dodge. It was staying out of out of the film business. That was it. Yes. Well, yes. So what I'm saying is the people that made millions of dollars making chairs or lamps or something like that, they're in that business. They have no connection to the film business. And for them, it's a sexy, kind of exciting investment. So that's the person that you want to go after. That's the investment that you want to seek, because now you're introducing them to a world that they would never have a connection in. So you're their conduit. If you can do that, and I've done it for tons of people, if you can do that, then you know that's you're you're offering value there. So you're bringing them into that world. So again, when you're looking for money, stay out of the film business. The film business is that they do their own job and they have their specific jobs. You want to go to somebody that has no connection and allow them to be in that movie business.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Well, Tom, um, tell us about your book. Bankroll too.
SPEAKER_02Oh, great. Well, my book, Bankroll, was um I I had there were two editions of that that were released uh through Michael Wees uh publications, and uh that's a book on film financing, and so yeah, that's been out for a while. The key is with film financing, a lot of stuff changes, as you know. Um I have I put some uh some new materials together. There's something that Jason Brewbaker and I did called the Film Finance Guide, which is filmfinance guide.com, and that's kind of like an updated version of that with documents to support, you know, and and things that you would need for your whole package to put it together and kind of take it to the next level. And actually we just released a something else called the Movie Plan Pro, which is like a business plan with all the support there, video walkthroughs and everything. So if you go to filmfinance guide.com, you could see where that is. And uh, you know, I think to me that's that's the best I got right now as far as helping people out and trying to get their movie forward, you know, aside from taking our class where you're actually going to get personal instruction and go through. Um, you know, if you just want to test the waters, try the film finance guide.
SPEAKER_04Oh, that sounds fabulous. And movieplan.pro.
SPEAKER_02I think it's just called movieplanpro.com. I think in the and I think it's part of the film finance guide. Like if you go to Film Finance Guide website, it'll sh it'll sell the business plan on there as well.
SPEAKER_04Okay, because so you're great with business plans. I always love what you do. Uh they're sharp, succinct, and they worked, because you're using it.
SPEAKER_02Succinct is a big thing for me. You know, it's just get to the point. You know, you're talking to this high net worth individual that's you know, for your documentary or your film, they you they don't have time to weed through a a a poorly designed and a poorly designed business plan is gonna get you the door, but you know, they don't have time to weed through a gigantic business plan, so succinct is is is a big thing.
SPEAKER_04Right. Okay, Tom, this is brilliant information. Thank you so much for sharing this, and I look forward to working with you in September in the next class.
SPEAKER_02Oh, totally. Well, we always have fun, and I I I guarantee every time when we do it, we've moved every filmmaker forward. And that's no matter what, that's the one thing I feel we can guarantee is they start at A and they'll get to B before the class is over. So we we you know move them forward and we push their project on the line. That's the one thing I feel like no matter what we'll do for them.
SPEAKER_04Yes, we always do that. Well, thank you very much. Take good care.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fantastic. Thank you, Carol. Okay, thank you, Tom.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Claire. Bye. Thanks, Tom. Oh, you're very welcome. Be well, everyone.
SPEAKER_03Now, in its second edition, Carol Dean's popular book, The Art of Film Funding, has 12 new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer, how to make an ask for money, create your story structure and your trailer, legal advice, fair use, successful crowdfunding, how to ask for music rights, and what insurance you can issue without. Available on Amazon under Caroline and at FromTheHeartProductions.com. I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra. David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story, please contact him at davidrakeland.com. That's davidr-a-i-k-l-e-n.com. And Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding. Please visit our website at FromTheHeartproductions.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films, everyone.
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