How Not to Negotiate a Distribution Deal

Join Peter Broderick as he gives you key steps to take, and highlights of what to avoid in film distribution deals.If you would like to learn more about Carole Dean and From the Heart Productions please visit www.FromtheHeartProductions.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Love Hope Radio.

SPEAKER_06 0:15

Hi, and welcome to the Art of Film Funding. I'm your co-host, Claire Capan. Along with Carol Dean, author of the best-selling book, The Art of Film Funding, Carol is also the founder and president of From the Heart Productions and the host of this show.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

Peter Broderick is president of Paradigm Consulting, which helps filmmakers and media companies develop strategies to maximize distribution, audience, and revenues. In addition to advising on sales and marketing, Paradigm Consulting specializes in state-of-the-art distribution techniques, including innovative theatrical service deals, hybrid video strategies, mixing retail and direct sales online, and new approaches to global distribution. And Carol, I understand uh that Peter has been a donor to the Roy Dean Grant.

SPEAKER_07 1:15

Yes, he has, and thank you so much for joining us, Peter. We appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_07 1:23

Well, I'm excited. I want to get started. Let's pretend we're where filmmakers have finished their film and they received their first distribution offer. So can let's start with some mistakes for them to avoid.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Well, the first mistake to avoid is to be uh believing everything that this charming distributor is saying to you about how they're gonna do a fantastic job. Uh there are lots of distributors out there and one thing I've learned is that even the worst, the most ineffective uh distributor is good at the ability to tell filmmakers that they're gonna do a great job with their movies. Um so it's I mean it's very exciting to have somebody that wants your film and it's very uh you know, hopeful to listen to them. But uh I think you really need to step back and then say uh then decide that you're gonna research this distributor and sure they can give you information, they can give you some referrals and but remember that even the worst distributor is gonna have somebody that likes them and then they'll refer you to those people. So what I recommend to filmmakers is that they they go online and they identify some other filmmakers who are currently in business with this distributor or have recently been in business with them and then reach out to those filmmakers and find out what their experience has been. And I I would recommend talking to at least three and maybe five filmmakers, um, to do your research. And what I know to be true is that if they've had a bad experience, that's probably gonna be your experience. So they're gonna tell you the truth, you talk to them off the record, you know, person to person, you ask them some clear questions and and and also remember that in the first phase of having a distribution deal, there's a honeymoon period. Which means that the distributor is feeling very optimistic, the filmmaker's feeling very optimistic and and everything's good. But and sometimes the honeymoon period lasts a really long time until no deals have been made and no money has come to the filmmaker. Um but uh, you know, you gotta be you gotta be careful, uh, that you know, the Stockholm syndrome hasn't set in where you kind of get to love your captors. And um and so the the filmmakers who are doing the d research need to kind of cut through and say, Well well are you know, are they, you know, good to work with, have actual deals been made, have you actually received the money that you know was expected? Um, try to cut through to do you like your distributor. That doesn't necessarily answer answer your key questions. And if if filmmakers don't do this before they make a distribution deal, uh they'll they can live to regret it. Um so that that due diligence is the first step that I'd recommend anybody who gets a distribution offer.

SPEAKER_07 4:43

Oh, excellent. And it's most important the questions you you uh mentioned are so key. You can't just ask, do you like them? Because yeah, a lot of times they really like the people, but they're just not delivering.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_07 4:57

Get specific with your questions, how much money have you made? Are you happy? Uh are they working on it? How often do they call you or communicate, those kind of things, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:07

And do they treat you as a partner instead of an annoyance? Oh my gosh, you're so you know, you're you're bringing uh knowledge, you're bringing some core audiences, you're bringing expertise in the area that your film's, you know, made within, and they should see they should value that and really um utilize it. And and you're gonna be spreading the word about your film and you're not they're not paying you to do it, so you're a you're a valuable partner. And I think that it's important I mean, some d in the past, in many cases, the relationship between distributors and filmmakers has been a kind of master slave relationship where all the power was in the distributor, all the decisions were made by the distributor, and the filmmaker just had to, you know, kind of f follow whatever the distributor, you know, decided. I think in these days in the in the newer world of distribution, um we should really think about partnerships w that are win-win, where it's it's good for both sides and they appreciate what the other partner brings to the situation and they want to maximize maximize the relationship and and have it work for both both sides.

SPEAKER_07 6:21

Exactly. Because they really are partners and nowadays um diff filmmakers can do so give so much support to a distributor through their own database and their continuous working on social networking promoting the film. So they truly are partners.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

And and I think that in the you know, in the old world where filmmakers had this the kind of magical thinking, well, I'll just turn it over to the distributor and they'll do all the work and they'll do great and I can go on and make my next movie. Uh that's that's a crazy way to think about it. Um even the best distributors, you know, need input um i you know, from the filmmakers. Uh and if they if they don't get it and they're just, you know, distributing the movie just like every other movie they normally distribute and they they can't customize the distribution, then you're not gonna you're not gonna maximize the results. So there needs to be, you know, in a in a good interaction between the two and uh that way you you know you can end up doing the best.

SPEAKER_07 7:29

Possible. Okay. This sounds very good. And to enhance your relationship. That's what it's r uh really all about.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

I mean I I like the term the care and feeding of distributors. Um the phrase. And I think that you really need to, you know, be political and you know, m make sure that they feel supported and they feel appreciated and and believe me, we're having worked with lots of filmmakers, when somebody expresses appreciation, it's it means so much. Even though, you know, all other times I'm sure that they're appreciating you, but when it's said, whether it's a little note, an email, even said something said on the phone, it really makes a huge difference. And I'm sure that's true for you, Carol, as well. So think about it from the standpoint of the distributor who's, you know, working hard, has lots of films, has lots of clients, some of whom are totally annoying. Um, you know, can you uh, you know, appreciate the good things they're doing for you? I think that that'll really help.

SPEAKER_07 8:32

Exactly. Yes, it sounds good. Okay. Don't believe everything they say. Are you being treated as a partner? Uh and don't believe uh well, check with other filmmakers to make sure that they're happy with the distributors and ask specific questions. All right.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

Right.

SPEAKER_07 8:53

Any other ideas on what that we can do to avoid mistakes?

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Well, I think if we go back a step, um, before you get that distribution offer, um I I recommend that filmmakers have designed a customized distribution strategy, customized to their goals, their target audiences, um, the avenues of distribution, versions of the film, all those things. And so the in the best of all possible worlds they would be finding distributors who could help them implement the f the film uh the help the filmmaker implement his or her strategy rather than a situation where filmmakers approach a distributor and they end up f um h fitting into the one size fits all strategies which the you know, the distributor employs. The difference between these two things is night and day. And so if you you while you're making your film you're exploring audiences, you know, starting to build awareness of the film, testing audiences, and by the time the film is done you you should have a pretty clear sense of who the audiences are, how to frame the film when you approach those audiences, um um what the possibilities are, and then then have a d a distribution strategy that's gonna be step by step, you know, to maximize the results. So then if you get an offer from a distributor and you say, you know, we're really interested in working with you, this is what we'd like to do, um, you know, can you partner with us to to to do that? Um, that's much better than, oh, here's our movie, we're turning it over to you, um, you know, let us know what you what you're planning to do with it. So now be c people need to be careful. So typically, you know, films get into Sundance and everybody goes and looks for a producer's rep. And and, you know, there's some there're definitely some good reps out there, there's some reps that aren't so good, but um and let's say the filmmaker as part of their distribution strategy has decided that they want to retain their educational rights. Uh, they want to retain the right to do special event screenings and they wanna retain the right to sell directly from their website, D V Ds, downloads and streams. Now so they could say to the rep, Okay, I'm I'm happy for you to negotiate deals. These are things that we wanna hold on to, whoever you make a deal with. So the reps ch typically will say, Oh, that's great. We'll we'll try to make that happen and and you know, we'll we'll do our best to achieve that. Then what happens is the rep interest you know, approaches the number of distributors and sees who w sees where the offers are and starts negotiating the offers and then chooses one to focus on and then's negotiating the offer. And then, you know, somewhere at the last minute before the you know, the deal is signed, they'll say, Oh, by the way, the filmmakers wanna retain the right to do screenings the right to sell from their website, the right to do educational distribution and the distributor is either either gonna say, Are you kidding? or No or Okay, I'll agree to some of those things in return for you agreeing to some other things which will make the deal better for me. So that's a bad situation to be in because, you know, it's not um very likely to turn out um, you know, with the results that the filmmaker you know, said that to the rep that you know they wanted. So another way to approach it, which is kind of uh an alternative um uh version, is to when the rap um or the filmmakers are first talking to a distributor, they could say, We're planning to, you know, do our own um uh educational distribution, uh we're gonna definitely sell from a website and we're gonna do some semi-theatrical screenings and we'd like, you know, to work with you on all our other rights. In that situation, if somebody says that to a distributor, um then they if they don't run screaming from the room they're essentially agreeing to those things. And so they're off the table. You've already framed it. Uh you're talking to them about the what the rights you want to give them, not all rights. So I think the difference between raising these things at the beginning of the conversations or at the end is is hugely different. And I I can remember the Toronto Film Festival a number of years ago and a distributor was interested in a movie and I said, Okay, so great, we're really interested in working with you. You know, we're gonna uh hand handle distribu educational distribution and we're gonna sell directly from the website and the distributor goes, Well, why would they want to sell directly from the website? It's like that kind of amazing question you can't even believe that somebody asked me.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

It's amazing. Well yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

So we said, Well, we have good reasons we want to do that and there's a way to make it work where you can sell all uh other rights and then we just keep these rights and so they kind of grumpily acknowledged that, you know, that was possible and then we kind of went from there. The other thing is that let's just make a distinction between a traditional all rights deal where a filmmaker is making a deal with a distributor and he or she is giving all the rights in North America or whatever the territory is to this distributor versus a situation where you're splitting your rights among several distributors and you're gonna keep some rights yourself. So let's call that h hybrid distribution. Now, in a hybrid distribution model, what I recommend is that you figure out which rights a distributor is good is good at handling, and those are the rights you're interested in giving them. Because even the best distributors, I can guarantee you, there's some things they're really good at, there's some things they're mediocre at, and there's some things they're poor at. So you don't want to give them rights that they're poor handling, uh, that makes no sense. You don't really want to give them rights that they're mediocre at handling, you want to give them rights that they're really good at. Um and then maybe you'll find another distributor that can handle the other rights that they they're good at that. So when you think about it, you want to try to always analyze their s w the strengths and give people, you know, because in many cases if they take all your rights, they're gonna really they're not gonna really do anything with educational distribution even though they'll have the right. Um they're not gonna do anything with semi-theatrical special event screenings, even though they have the right. So make sure that the rights that you're giving to a distributor are things that they have a track record doing well, and the things that they don't really do, they don't care about, keep those.

SPEAKER_07 16:15

Okay, that's really important. Well, can I ask you, is Tug part of the semi-theatrical distribution?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Well Tug's interesting. Um Tug has uh three flavors or three um parts. Uh when Tug started out, they were doing crowdsourced theatrical. So if you wanted your film screened in a theater in Cleveland, if seventy-five people or whatever the number was bought a ticket in advance, then there'd be a screening in the theater in Cleveland, and it'd be, you know, a one one screening slot, so there'd probably be some f screenings beforehand of other movies and after. Um and I think initially this was a pretty innovative approach and um but for me it's just it's not as um exciting as semi-theatrical distribution, which I define as a special event screening of a film, not a regular run in a theater, which could be, you know, seven days, five shows a day, or you know, three days, whatever. And usually, not always, but usually semi-theatrical screenings are outside of theaters. So they could be on a campus, they could be in a museum, they could be at a library, art center, a temple, a church, whatever. And because they're outside of theaters, there's not the time crunch there is in a theater. In a theater, you know, you ha you s let's say there's a ninety-minute film, maybe there's fifteen, twenty minutes for Q ⁇ A, then they have to clean the theater and they kick everybody out before that, and then the next show's gonna start. So you have a very, very limited window. It's hard to think of that as a special event from my standpoint. But if let's say you you're showing it at a at a library and you have the whole night. So there's time for people to gather ahead of time, there's time for a screening, there's time for a Q ⁇ A, there may be time for a panel, and then people can mingle afterwards. That to me is a special event as opposed to just a screening with a kind of Q and a short QA tacked on. So in a semi-theatrical mode, Tug does does has a rental fee for the screening, um, and then so whoever's putting it on, you know, pays a X amount of money and you don't have to sell seventy-five tickets in advance or you know, anything like that. Um and then to understand um how Tug works, if you're a filmmaker and you let's hope you have some uh teammates, so you have a distribution team, somebody on your team is gonna be in charge of pushing the screenings out, as in, you know, approaching different venues and organizations and institutions and telling them about the movie and trying to convince them to do a screening. Tug doesn't do that for semi-theatrical, they fulfill, so they can, you know, d take the order, they can send out the materials, they can collect the money, they can do all that stuff. But um you need to be proactive. So the third version of of Tug, uh the third flavor, is educational distribution. And with educational distribution, they sell copies to, you know, colleges, universities, libraries, uh nonprofits, uh, government agencies, things like that. Um and they have three tiers um when they consider a film. So if it's a tier w one film, um which they think has you know, th those films have the most potential, then they'll um be very proactive in pushing the movie out. Um if it's a tier two film, they'll be somewhat proactive in pushing it out, and if it's a tier three film, though they won't be that proactive. They'll just kind of put in their catalog and it'll be available. So um if you work with TUG on semi-theatrical distribution and they they learn who the core audiences are and w which institutions are doing screenings, then that is gonna inform them if if you agree to have them as the educational distributors so they can they can do a a a better job. So that can be a really good um one-two punch.

SPEAKER_07 20:32

So it can be good on the uh educational distribution.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Oh definitely, definitely, yes. And and one last one thing to remember, Carol, about educational distribution. Most educational distribu distributors just sell copies to their existing customers. So if if you're an environmental if you're an environmental distributor like Bullfrog and you've been dis distributing environmental films for years, then you have a lot of customers that are, you know, buying environmental films and so that's that's great. But if a film comes along about autism and you you don't really have customers, you know, buying those kinds of films, then it i it's much harder. Um so one of the things that I've been impressed with about Tug is that because they're they've only been doing educational distribution for a shorter time, um, they don't have a a huge base of customers for years and years and years. So that means they need to be proactive and target um potential buyers in different categories. Um so that's something that is separates them most m from most other educational distributors.

SPEAKER_07 21:48

Right. Well uh the but there is another benefit too from Tug and that is that they give you all the names of anyone who comes to your screenings. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Yes, and they they're transparent on sales and rentals as well in terms of organizations and and this is r this is such an important point, if we could just s talk about this for like one minute. Um in if you think about what makes what possibility for a filmmaker to have a sustainable career I would say that the size of their personal core audience can have a really big effect in terms of, you know, uh allowing sustainability. Um and so when you're thinking about your core audience, the question is, well how do you you know, how do you build that audience? And for the most part, when you're a distributor is selling a movie, whether it's going out through Netflix or iTunes or Amazon, those are all customers who are anonymous to you. You don't you're not gonna know their names and email addresses. They're just somewhere out there. Um when you're selling directly from your website or when you're working with a distributor like Tug or VHX w and they these are companies that will share the customer information with you, it's a huge advantage because then you know you can have those people on your mailing list and um be in touch with them not just for this film but for future films that you're gonna do. And I think the chan the opportunity to take people that have seen your first film with you to another film is is really, really important. Even though the films are on different subjects. If you've if you've created an image in the minds of people who've seen the first film of you as a passionate filmmaker, um I think they're gonna want to support you through your career, not not just in films on on one subject. So customer data, how you get access to it and which distributors will share it with you, that's a really, really important thing.

SPEAKER_07 23:54

Oh my goodness, yes. The database is everything because I look at it from film funding and crowdfunding and um it's and these people really love you. I've always said they give the people give money to people not to films. And it's it's it's so true. Um I love it when they support you through weird type movies from one to another but it's you they're giving the money to.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

And that that also let me say one more thing about that. Um when you think about a filmmaker's website, now a lot of filmmakers think it's okay just to be on Facebook. Um I'm sorry. I don't agree with that. I think you need to have a website and you need to have a mailing list where you have the names and email addresses of people that you can, you know, regularly be in touch with, I don't know, once a month, once a quarter build those relationships. Um so when you think about the website your website don't just g get a standard operating procedure indie website that looks nice but there's no you there. You know, it's it it could be just corporate. There's no sense of your persona, your passion um and so if if you had a choice between having a website that was pretty and slick and you know, whatever but anonymous or a site that looked a little bit ho more homemade where the filmmaker uh she was she or he was are present throughout the site, you really got a sense of the passion with which with which they're making movies. I'd take the homemade site with a persona every day over a slick anonymous website.

SPEAKER_07 25:37

Absolutely me too. I love it when you when you get to know who the person is I totally agree. And oh by the way I loved that series you put out from your bulletin saying your website sucks. It is it was really well done, great information and thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Well it's funny uh you mentioned that I I d I I actually think it's great and I can say that because I didn't write it. Um I I asked um you know two people to to create it and I I knew they could do a good job and they they did even better than I thought. It was it's fantastic. Anybody that's designing a website or thinking about how to upgrade their website should definitely read the these two bulletins. But the interesting thing is the first uh bulletin was called Your website sucks because I thought that would get a lot of it people to you know read the bulletin. I got an email from some outraged uh festival programmer s saying how insulted he was that I was telling him how bad his website was well I'd never seen his website. I don't know him at all. Of course when I did when I did look at his website after that it turned out his website did suck. Um so so he was very defensive for good reason. But I mean really how can you take it personally? So the second the second website the second bulletin's the title was your website still sucks. So I didn't he I I didn't hear from him after that but I have a feeling that he's still got a grudge against me.

SPEAKER_07 27:14

Oh I wondered where that second title came from I see now that is so funny. That's a great way to go. Well I have to tell everybody you must go to peterbroderick dot com and look for his bulletin and look for his services but we all await your bulletins and it's like glee when you open your email and oh we have a new one because you take subjects and you really get into them you in depth you explain things so clearly I sincerely appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Well I thank you for mentioning that I right now little more than 11,500 people around the world are getting the bulletin and uh the only real complaint I get is that I don't send it out often enough. And and it's it's free and and I really have done it to share information with filmmakers that I hope will empower them to make movies and keep making them. So I'd be happy for people to come to the website and sign up and I'll I'll send them their way. I think at this point there are over 30 distribution bulletins on the website so there's a lot of information there that um that's already there I think that that could be helpful.

SPEAKER_07 28:28

Oh I know and it's timely all of it's timely. Well um let's go back now to um well when filmmakers let's say when filmmakers um are in negotiations who can they consult with besides their lawyer okay well I'm a lawyer in former life I'm so I can say what I'm about to say.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Lawyers can be very far behind the curve um and they don't know it but you know some of them are could r could make a great twenty eleven deal for you um but it's the problem is it's twenty seventeen and what was important in the twenty eleven deal is not important anymore. And there's things that in the twenty seventeen deal that are important that weren't nobody even thought of then. So if you're gonna if you can get a lawyer to to help you, you really need to make sure that it's somebody who's who's really up to speed. Um a few years ago I was approached um by s by an attorney and she said Well would I be willing to do you know a seminar workshop for attorneys and I said I will under one condition and she goes, What's that? And I said that they want me to do it because I had this feeling knowing attorneys Uh that they would all be, you know, confident that they knew everything there was to know and who was this upstart you know telling you gonna give them a seminar and what would they learn and and months went by and and I I heard from her and I guess she never could find enough attorneys who didn't think they knew everything. So so that's don't so f so that's one. Two um I don't recommend that filmmakers negotiate their own deals um because the person they're gonna be negotiating with could have negotiated a hundred deals or or more. And they have a lot of expertise, experience and abilities negotiating that that the filmmaker doesn't have. So I think you really want to have somebody that can, you know, help you in the on the negotiation part. And you y you it doesn't necessarily have to be a lawyer, it doesn't necessarily have to be a producer's rep I mean it could even be an experienced filmmaker. I mean there's a variety of people that can play the role. Um but i if you're if you're negotiating with no experience against an experienced negotiator, um I don't think you know the best is gonna happen. Now let me say one thing Carol. If you know it if you got if you've received one offer okay. Now you this is the burden the hand problem. Okay, so you're a filmmaker, you've worked really hard to make this movie, you know, you spent years on it, you've b you know, been to festivals, you've you know, both seen the movie and only one distributor wants your movie. So you may feel as most people do that they really can't negotiate it. It's it's like okay this is my last chance Texaco before the desert and I gotta just say yes so however whatever the deal is. So now let's step back. Uh usually when you talk to a distributor uh who wants your movie th they'll say you know we'll send you a bo our boilerplate contract um but it's negotiable. Okay, could I just translate that into for you? It means we're gonna send you the worst contract we can dream up and then we'll agree to it not being so bad. And I'm like whoa whoa whoa hold on hold on could we just start out with like a fair contract and then you know try to figure out you know how to modify it? So don't think um that a boilerplate contract uh is gonna be to your advantage. And um but anyway, they send you okay so here's your one offer they send you the boilerplate contract and and you think you have no leverage, you're gonna just have to sign it and hope for the best. Wrong. What I recommend that people do is have an internal bottom line. Now this is going to vary with every film and every person but let's just say you you decided that you wanted the filmmaker the distributor to spend a minimum amount of money on promotion, putting it in theaters, whatever, and let's say I don't know pick a number you wanted them to agree to spend at least twenty thousand dollars um doing that now you're not gonna tell the other side what your bottom line is but if you approach it this way, you say, you know, we'd really like to work with you um you know we just want to make a fair deal and y you know and then we're good to go. Well nobody's gonna say no we don't want to make a fair deal. You're not it's not an adversarial process, you know, where you're yelling at each other about what's right and what's wrong. You're just saying we just want to make a fair deal. And and if they know that you do have an internal bottom line, that you're gonna walk away if the deal is just you know beyond the pale, then that gives you leverage in in the negotiation. Um because they want your movie. Um so it isn't that you have to agree to the worst contract in the history of contracts. Um another example would be let's just say you want some kind of minimum guarantee. Right advanced on distribution and maybe you in your mind you know you say it's five thousand dollars. So when you're talking to them um you know the idea with a with the bottom line is that you say to yourself if I don't get five thousand dollars I'm not gonna make this deal and um I'm not gonna think about it at the time I'm just right now I I I want five thousand dollars. That's critically important to me and I'm not gonna make the deal if I don't get it. So psychologically it's gonna make you uh it put you in a stronger position and it's also going to communicate to them that yes, this filmmaker isn't just a total pushover. They do have some things that are important to them so we really need to be flexible to try to get them to make a deal.

SPEAKER_07 35:00

Um so that can that but if you haven't told them that I have a bottom line, do you tell them that or just don't tell them the number?

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean I think you say it in a kind of in between the lines way where you say, you know, I just want to make a fair deal. There's certain things that are you know important to me and and then you could say one of those is you know is the advance and you know I I think that there's I I need a fair advance and then they can make an offer and then you could say well you know can we do better than that and you know you can c kinda go back and forth. Um but I just think it's you know th no I I'll say this. Um no deal is better than a bad deal and let me just say it again no deal is better than a bad deal. If you make a bad deal you're gonna regret it throughout the deal and after the deal right?

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

If you if you don't make a bad deal um hopefully there will be other deals to come that are fair, are reasonable, aren't outrageously bad. Um so you gotta have a m mentality saying that it's not any deal is a good deal um when when you know you have no other offers. And there are some companies and I won't list them now um where the deal doesn't it doesn't matter what the deal is because you're always gonna regret working with them.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

And what's what's interesting about this is that um there how these companies stay in business you know after they you know do hor horrible things to this filmmaker and that filmmaker and the next filmmaker. So this goes back to the importance of due diligence. Um there's no website you can go to I mean there I without naming names, there were a few websites like this and then in one case there was a a a kind of bulletin board where people could write in their experiences with different uh you know, distributors and reps and and there were this one distributor one rep uh who got a lot of really bad ratings and um and then the rep threatened to sue the the company that put up the bulletin board and then they take took all the bad information down. So th there there's no simple public way to do this. And also don't have your heads turned by quote successes. You read about an IndieWire variety, whatever, oh this movie made all this money y y it's it's amazing how many times if you talk to the filmmakers and you say, Well you know, were you satisfied? And yet it turns out yeah the movie made money but the filmmakers never got any. Um so you really have to go, you know, behind the hype and to find out what the reality is. And there's very good distributors out there. Um and and in some cases instead I I remember one year I was at Sundance and um I had a new a film I was I was repping. This was when I was running Next Wave Films, the Finishing Fund. And uh so I was trying to get, I don't know, fifteen distributors to look at the movie and blah blah blah. And then I had this kind of moment where I realized that maybe twelve of those companies I really didn't want to be in business with in the first place. It wasn't a question of the offer was, it was a question of whether I thought they could do a good job. So I think it's important not to think of it as a as an auction. I mean yeah sure some films everybody wants and at midnight or three AM and a condo a deal's made. But I think it's it's better to think in a proactive way. Okay, these are excellent distributors, I've talked to filmmakers that are working with them. These are the kind of companies that I'd want to I want to be in business with. And even if their offer on paper isn't quite as good as, you know, another company who, you know is kind of a bottom feeder, you want to work with a company where, you know, they've they've treated filmmakers well, they're honest, um they're effective at what they do, they're collaborative, even if uh initially the money doesn't seem quite as great.

SPEAKER_07 39:17

Right, exactly. All right, well let's talk about the areas of distribution that are available to filmmakers.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Okay. Um well let me just talk about Windows for a second because Okay um and I'll say this that even though Windows for studios are collapsing um and they're about to make a m a giant error by you know opening movies, some making them available at home at the same time they're opening in theaters if you pay fifty dollars or whatever. Um i if there's time I can tell you why I think that's y you know giant disaster. But the th the reality is for independent filmmakers, particularly documentary filmmakers, windows are more important than they've ever been um and some people say well let's do everything day and day. You know, we'll put it in theaters, we'll make it available online and anybody wants it can get it in any f any format they want wrong. Um I think that that you know each window has you know certain potential and if you do them in a certain order then you can build on you know the awareness that you've created in each window. Alright, so let's talk about the window. So the first window people know about of course is festivals. But I would say you know for some documentaries festivals are not important that there's core audiences out there that don't want to film regardless of whether it w was ever at festivals and you know an example of that is forks over knives, another example um is Food Matters. So so be you know, have a perspective on whether the festivals are essential or whether they could be some help or whether they're not, you know, worth the trouble. But the thing that in that same window and and immediately afterwards that people should think about is the importance of conferences. If you're making a documentary um and there's an opportunity to be a a national conference where people involved with that issue come together once a year and whether the film's shown in whole or in part, that can be a tremendous opportunity to s spread awareness in in that core audience. Most festivals on the other hand are local. There's exceptions where, you know, Sundance in Toronto or you know, kind of national international events but most film festivals are local and they have a m you know odd mixture of films with an odd mixture of viewers. And so being at that festival isn't really gonna make a big difference in terms of distribution of your film or or awareness either. Where most of the conferences I'm talking about are national where people come from across the country together and if they see your film and get excited about it, you know, they can really be spreading the word in in you know key ways. So that's that's the first window. Then there's theatrical and I would say that um the in in terms of nonfiction um the theatrical's almost over in the sense that you can be in theaters you just can't have any audiences. And I'm you know there are some exceptions but I mean there's one fabulous movie I was consulting on. Opens in LA um uh Rave Review in the LA Times and during the whole week uh there were their average was two people per show. Oh my gosh and and that is not that is not so unusual. Um so I think people can can be in theaters but they need to really be realistic about what's possible and think about okay well we're gonna play New York because that's gonna help us get, you know, media attention, okay cool. Um generally speaking, I know from my grass don't like me saying this, but generally speaking I think Academy Word qualifying is a waste of money um because you've got a hundred and fifty or a hundred and sixty movies trying to get into five nomination slots being shortlisted which is fifteen slots generally doesn't help a film at all. And an academy campaign if you if you get to that point often costs a hundred thousand dollars or more. Whereas if it's gonna take cost you twenty or twenty five thousand to qualify, you can spend that twenty or twenty five thousand in a lot of ways that are guaranteed to get results.

SPEAKER_03 43:59

Whereas

SPEAKER_02 44:00

you know, if you're one of a hundred and sixty films trying to get into five slots and you assume that every year two or three of those slots are already going to be taken um the odds are really against you and I don't you know I don't I don't want you to if you've got very limited resources to to waste them when you could be um you know doing significant things with your distribution. So anyway, so so so you gotta think about theaters. But the window after that which Carol talked about before, semi theatrical is a vital window. And in the past filmmakers have had educational distribution where the educational distributors they rented movies for screenings and then they sold mo copies of films. I don't recommend that. I recommend having a window where you're doing screenings and before you do a window when you're doing sales because if the windows are the s at the same time somebody buys a movie, they can do their own screening. So I'd rather have a screening window first. And and I'd I'd like the filmmakers to retain those rights and have somebody work with them to maximize the screenings around the country than work with a good educational distributor um in terms of sales. And and in terms of timing I would say that um you know the sort of theatrical, if you're gonna do some theatrical and s semi theatrical minimum of three months then educational sales should be a minimum of six months before you get to consumer. And if it's if that includes the summer when educational buyers are not buying um nine months. So I I think a slow roll out is in is important and um and the the thing that the one of the competitive advantages that independent filmmakers have is that they can go step by step through their distribution and they can learn information in each stage of their distribution and then refine what they do in the subsequent stages. You know, Hollywood studios think of themselves as data driven but the reality is that other than thinking about how many tickets are sold, they're not learning anything. Once the movie goes into theaters they think it's too late to change anything and they just follow their plan blindly. But for an independent the night your film opens in theaters or even at the festival level you're gonna be learning about how audiences are reacting, which audiences are excited, you know, how the movie gets framed to them that you know is the most effective and so then in the next stage you can incorporate what you've learned. So if you make a customized strategy and you refine it stage by stage your chances of you know being happy in the end are much greater. A couple of years ago someone asked me um what percentage of filmmakers who make all rights deals as in give all the rights to one company end up happy? I thought about it for about thirty seconds and I said, Well I think three percent would be a big number and the other ninety seven percent are somewhere between apoplectic and mildly dissatisfied and and if you asked me that today I'd say I think two percent because I do a lot of speaking around the w uh uh a lot of speaking around the world and I always poll audiences. How many of you have been happy with your distribution? If I see one or two hands in a group of three hundred people, I'm surprised. No um so you you gotta I'm not saying taking a hybrid approach a n a new world approach is easy. I'm not saying it's got guaranteed results, but I think the likelihood that you're gonna be in the end, feel you did it the w as as well as you could as opposed to somebody else took your movie and you know, threw it away. Um is much greater. And also the thing is with the new the new strategies you're you're the filmmakers are learning. Every day they're learning things about how distribution's working today. If you turn your film over to a distributor you may be learning nothing but heartache. So I I think that if they're working in the old old world of distribution then you're not going to learn anything about the new world. And that's if you want to you know have a sustainable career as a filmmaker, you really have to understand how distribution is working today. You have to understand the importance of strategies, you have to understand the need to kind of target and and reach out to core audiences um and build your own personal audience.

SPEAKER_07 48:20

Oh that sounds marvelous thank you. Now tell us how you work with filmmakers. Uh when someone is interested in working with you what do they do? They send you an outline of their film or what?

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Well on my d on my website peterbroder.com there's a form that people can fill out describing their movie, you know, sending me a link to a trailer. Um so all these forms come in then I look at them um and then the ones that I think that I that I could help that seem like a g a good fit I'm doing mostly nonfiction these days. I mean th there are times I will do a feature fiction feature but mostly docs. Um then I'll I'll do an initial call, you know, typically you know fifty minutes it's a free call. Talk with a filmmaker, find out you know where things stand beyond what she's she or he has said in the forum and then uh think think about whether I can, you know, be helpful. Um and then if if I agree to help uh and if the filmmaker wants wants me to do it um then uh I I I start out with five hours of time that I devote to a project which includes the time to screen the movie at some point in its life and typically three and a half or four hours of consulting time which gets divided into consultations of I don't know a little less than an hour, a little more than an hour. And those get spread out over time. So it could be over six months, over a year, over a year and a half, over two years, whatever really the filmmaker needs. And in terms of what I do with with them I help them design a strategy. Um if they're gonna write it down and use it as something that they can help to find the funding to make the movie then I'll I'll help them, you know, tweak it um so they have a really persuasive document. Most filmmakers do not have customized strategies, so filmmakers that have a good one are really at an advantage um in terms of finding the resources to make a movie. Um then I help them build a distribution team because just like when they're making a movie they need a production team. When they're distributing a movie they need a distribu distribution team. Um when you're making a movie you need creative control and I think when you're bringing movie into the world you need distribution control. Um and then as they go step by step through the process, if people are coming their way I can advise people on who the g who good partners are, how to split the your rights, I can advise on negotiations. Um sometimes I I'm willing to actually do the negotiations for the filmmakers. Um and then really help the filmmakers think about their their c careers. Um this is one thing that I just I did recently a w a w a webinar about um career strategy for filmmakers and uh there are over seven hundred people from around the world who came along and uh it got an amazing response and people have been watching it ever since. So I I really like the idea of helping filmmakers think about how to design a c a str a strategy that's customized to their goals and their um experience and their abilities Carol or did I lose you?

SPEAKER_07 51:59

Yes you did but I'm back and you're back yes thank you. This is all really important. Now let me ask you do you uh do you negotiate distribution deals for people?

SPEAKER_02 52:12

I will in it's not my I'm the thing is I I it's not my favorite thing to do but the problem is I'm really good at it. So I um I will do it on s in some cases, but I always consult with the people first and then if it's you know, depending on if we have a really good working relationship and I think I can really help and they ask me to do that then I'll consider it. Um but I uh m most of the films that I work on I d I don't.

SPEAKER_07 52:44

Okay. So um alright got that now um so the only other thing I really uh wanted to to bring up is sometimes I I have been uh honored to be able to be on conversations with you sometimes when you talk to filmmakers and I find that you see a much bigger view of of the potential for the film sometimes and the filmmakers do themselves. You look at the long term and you look at it too as a business. Many times filmmakers are sitting on a new business and the film is only the kernel, the b the little seed that you plant and the business grows from it.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

So well it's interesting that you say that because you know filmmakers could be working on a film for three or four years and then I'll ask them and who do you think of as the core audience for the movie and they'll they'll l list some audiences and I'm like well what about th this and what about this and what about those and I mean I guess I have a core audience embed computer embedded in my brain somehow. I don't know when it happened. But so I'm seeing audiences that are f they're for the movie that they haven't really thought about. And um sometimes the m audiences that they were counting on you know don't like the movie for some reason or another. So I I think having uh you know, as you say an a another perspective when somebody's been living a film for a couple of years can really open up some opportunities. So I I I think that's exciting.

SPEAKER_07 54:19

It is and it's very important to get someone else to look at the project. Now um so they fill out the form, they send it to you and you can work uh you buy block of hours and you can work that at your convenience and as you need it. Um and so uh and you it for email how can they or they just go to peterbroadrick.com to find it.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

It's just Peter at peterbroderick com. It's really simple.

SPEAKER_07 54:45

Oh good okay Peter you have given us a wealth of knowledge and I sincerely appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

Well thank thanks for having me. It's you know it's always a challenge to see how much useful information we can cram into an hour or whatever we have um but I hope there's uh there's things here that will be helpful to people and uh they're welcome to you know get in touch.

SPEAKER_07 55:10

Thank you. We uh I'm sure best of luck to you.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Okay. Well thanks for having me Carol.

SPEAKER_07 55:18

Okay. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

Bye-bye thanks Claire bye thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_06 55:26

Be well everyone now in its second edition Carol Dean's popular book The Art of Film Funding has twelve new chapters to cover all areas of film financing and how to avoid expensive pitfalls. Learn how to start with an idea and end with a trailer. How to make an ask for money create your story structure and your trailer legal advice fair use successful crowdfunding how to ask for music rights and what insurance you can't shoot without. Available on Amazon under Carol Dean and at FromTheHeartProductions.com I want to remind our listeners that David Rakelin is a brilliant and talented award-winning musician who scores films and can compose music for a trio or for a full orchestra David is a very good friend to the independent filmmaker and comes highly recommended by From the Heart Productions. If you need music to help tell your story please contact him at davidwakelist.comidraikl.com and Carol and I want to thank you for tuning in to the Art of Film Funding please visit our website at From the Heartproductions dot com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. Good luck with your films everyone